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12 people? In TWO YEARS? Depends on the field i guess but a blue collar field hiring 12 ppl in 2 years? John Q. Public might as well give up on ever getting hired there.
First of all I don't hire the blue collar people, I hire the sales/marketing/business development team and have input on other professional and administrative hires.
Our turnover is very low, so actually we probably have only hire 15-20 blue collar workers in two years. And yes, most everyone we hire comes by way of referral, it's not an easy place to get into unless you know someone--although we generally don't hire "friends and relatives" but rather referrals from business associates outside our company.
I'm not an HR person, I'm a hiring manager and partner in the company. I hire for sales/marketing/business development positions, where impressions count. Duh.
you're doing little more than reading tea leaves when you differentiate based on something as completely irrelevant as thank you emails. you're stroking your ego at the detriment of your company and your partner when you differentiate based on something so trivial. there are virtually infinite better ways to differentiate candidates than to use thank you emails.
you're doing little more than reading tea leaves when you differentiate based on something as completely irrelevant as thank you emails. you're stroking your ego at the detriment of your company and your partner when you differentiate based on something so trivial. there are virtually infinite better ways to differentiate candidates than to use thank you emails.
Go back and read what I wrote. I had two equally qualified candidates to decide between. Same degree, attitude, experience, etc. But one sent a thank you note. Little things like that are very important when developing new business. It makes you stand out to the prospective customer. Therefore the person who sent the thank you note was the one hired.
I'm not sure why you think it has anything to do with ego. It's good manners and shows me that they have good follow up skills and know how to make themselves stand out form the pack--which is a crucial skill in business development.
This was not a blue collar job. I wouldn't expect a thank you from those applicants. This was a business development position. Big difference.
When I was younger I was also told to constantly follow up because it shows you're Persistent. Later on down the road when I worked at a Temp Agency I found out that "persistence" comes off as annoying and is a turn off when you call EVERY day. You dont need to follow up after a submitting your resume and application. If you're qualified and fit the job description the employer WILL call you.
I only follow up after interviews. I usually send a thank you note or email. If I don't hear a response in over a week, then I call to ask the status.
Go back and read what I wrote. I had two equally qualified candidates to decide between. Same degree, attitude, experience, etc.
No you don't. You're just too lazy to assess them accurately. Instead you rely on thank you notes as a cop out. Anyone who says two candidates are equal in all respects should not be in the job of assessing candidates.
I have interviewed many candidates in my time and seen the laziness in co-workers around me when interviewing them. I had to point out over and over that candidates that seemed the same were not and that more robust interviewing techniques were needed.
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But one sent a thank you note. Little things like that are very important when developing new business. It makes you stand out to the prospective customer. Therefore the person who sent the thank you note was the one hired.
I'm not sure why you think it has anything to do with ego. It's good manners and shows me that they have good follow up skills and know how to make themselves stand out form the pack--which is a crucial skill in business development.
This is what the vast majority of people in hiring positions don't understand: if you want to find out if someone has a skill, then directly find out. If you want to know whether a person sends thank you letters to clients, then test them on it using exercises, etc, rather than this tea leaf reading nonsense. Do not assume that whether they send you a thank you email after an interview has anything to do with how they would treat a client.
There are reasons people have for not sending thank you emails for interviews: don't want to seem desperate, don't want to annoy the interviewer, don't want to be over-thanking (think of how many times they have thanked you already by the time they left the interview - probably 5+ times from first cover letter to walking out the door), don't want to risk a typo or saying the wrong thing, and so on.
Meanwhile with a client, the situation is different than with an interview and candidates understand that. How you don't grasp that idea is beyond me.
Good business development has MUCH more to it than thank you follow up. If there is one thing that doesn't business development professionals it is follow up thank-you's because they all pretty much do it.
I've seen your posts in the past and stumbled on a credit background check thread once and saw your posts and each time I think "what a bunch of platitudes." You basically run your business with unfounded generalizations that in the end is just hurting your company's effectiveness. It's a classic case of unconscious incompetence (i.e., you don't know that you don't know).
No you don't. You're just too lazy to assess them accurately. Instead you rely on thank you notes as a cop out. Anyone who says two candidates are equal in all respects should not be in the job of assessing candidates.
I have interviewed many candidates in my time and seen the laziness in co-workers around me when interviewing them. I had to point out over and over that candidates that seemed the same were not and that more robust interviewing techniques were needed.
This is what the vast majority of people in hiring positions don't understand: if you want to find out if someone has a skill, then directly find out. If you want to know whether a person sends thank you letters to clients, then test them on it using exercises, etc, rather than this tea leaf reading nonsense. Do not assume that whether they send you a thank you email after an interview has anything to do with how they would treat a client.
There are reasons people have for not sending thank you emails for interviews: don't want to seem desperate, don't want to annoy the interviewer, don't want to be over-thanking (think of how many times they have thanked you already by the time they left the interview - probably 5+ times from first cover letter to walking out the door), don't want to risk a typo or saying the wrong thing, and so on.
Meanwhile with a client, the situation is different than with an interview and candidates understand that. How you don't grasp that idea is beyond me.
Good business development has MUCH more to it than thank you follow up. If there is one thing that doesn't business development professionals it is follow up thank-you's because they all pretty much do it.
I've seen your posts in the past and stumbled on a credit background check thread once and saw your posts and each time I think "what a bunch of platitudes." You basically run your business with unfounded generalizations that in the end is just hurting your company's effectiveness. It's a classic case of unconscious incompetence (i.e., you don't know that you don't know).
You know what, this is what I know. I own a successful and profitable business. We retain our employees and have very low turnover.
You are unemployed with a bitter chip on your shoulder that seeps through your posts loud and clear.
So, who do you think knows what they are talking about?
When you own a profitable company, come back and tell me I don't know what I'm doing. Until then, spend your time looking for a job instead of trying to tell me how to run my business.
First of all I don't hire the blue collar people, I hire the sales/marketing/business development team and have input on other professional and administrative hires.
Our turnover is very low, so actually we probably have only hire 15-20 blue collar workers in two years. And yes, most everyone we hire comes by way of referral, it's not an easy place to get into unless you know someone--although we generally don't hire "friends and relatives" but rather referrals from business associates outside our company.
Well, my question was pretty much aimed towards the blue collar folk. I dont know that white collar workers ever fill out applications. They submit resumes. Totally diff in my book. Ive worked at places that hired 12-15 a week so compared to your 12-15 in 2 years well thats not that many. What would the unemployment rate be in our country (usa) if on a whole only 12-15 people got jobs every 2 years?
Now if as a hr person or boss you get upset that someone is calling to check up on their application wouldnt that make you do less work? I remember bosses that would have stacks of applications and they would only look at the ones that were checked up on. "If they dont check up on it then I guess they really didnt want to work here" was the basic philosophy of a lot of places ive worked. Where did we end persistence is rewarded and start rewarding laziness? Submit an application then go back home and sit on your butt and wait for a phone call? What is that teaching us?
Well, my question was pretty much aimed towards the blue collar folk. I dont know that white collar workers ever fill out applications. They submit resumes. Totally diff in my book.
Actually for some white collar jobs, people do fill out applications. Lower level clerical workers come right to mind.
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Ive worked at places that hired 12-15 a week so compared to your 12-15 in 2 years well thats not that many. What would the unemployment rate be in our country (usa) if on a whole only 12-15 people got jobs every 2 years?
If you are hiring 12-15 a week, I'm guessing it's because you have a high turnover. So one person leaves and another gets hired. That means the u/e level is consistent as opposed to dropping. Check your math.
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Now if as a hr person or boss you get upset that someone is calling to check up on their application wouldnt that make you do less work?
We tell everyone who fills out an application that it will reviewed and if we are interested, we'll call. That means don't call us, we'll call you. The majority of people who just walk in off the street have zero skills applicable to our business, or don't have the required certifications. We try to discourage them from even applying if they have no skills. We don't want to waste their time. I've had a few that have begged to take the application because u/e was making them apply at so many places a week.
The people who are referred in are usually given an on-the-spot interview as we are expecting them. We always let them know one way or the other within a few days of the interview. Calling back isn't going to make us want to hire them. They either have the skills we need and are the best candidate or they don't, and we seldom get more than 2-3 solicited applications for our blue collar jobs because they are so specialized. We hire on the spot pending a reference check and passing a drug screen and physical when we find a highly qualified person.
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I remember bosses that would have stacks of applications and they would only look at the ones that were checked up on. "If they dont check up on it then I guess they really didnt want to work here" was the basic philosophy of a lot of places ive worked. Where did we end persistence is rewarded and start rewarding laziness? Submit an application then go back home and sit on your butt and wait for a phone call? What is that teaching us?
We no longer advertise our jobs except through word of mouth, so unsolicited applications are accepted but not particularly welcome. I can think of one person in the past year who walked in, filled out an app, and was hired. He was a general laborer with a forklift certification who just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
If we are interested, we'll call them. Them calling us isn't going to get them hired.
well whatever state youre in my wife and I will not ever be moving there (and hopefully we dont live there already). We immediately x out all places that require or look highly upon college degrees. In our humble opinion, everybody has the right to have a shot. You never know, that guy who just walked in off the street with no experience other than mowing yards just might end up being one of the best workers to come around in a long time.
Actually for some white collar jobs, people do fill out applications. Lower level clerical workers come right to mind.
If you are hiring 12-15 a week, I'm guessing it's because you have a high turnover. So one person leaves and another gets hired. That means the u/e level is consistent as opposed to dropping. Check your math.
We tell everyone who fills out an application that it will reviewed and if we are interested, we'll call. That means don't call us, we'll call you. The majority of people who just walk in off the street have zero skills applicable to our business, or don't have the required certifications. We try to discourage them from even applying if they have no skills. We don't want to waste their time. I've had a few that have begged to take the application because u/e was making them apply at so many places a week.
The people who are referred in are usually given an on-the-spot interview as we are expecting them. We always let them know one way or the other within a few days of the interview. Calling back isn't going to make us want to hire them. They either have the skills we need and are the best candidate or they don't, and we seldom get more than 2-3 solicited applications for our blue collar jobs because they are so specialized. We hire on the spot pending a reference check and passing a drug screen and physical when we find a highly qualified person.
We no longer advertise our jobs except through word of mouth, so unsolicited applications are accepted but not particularly welcome. I can think of one person in the past year who walked in, filled out an app, and was hired. He was a general laborer with a forklift certification who just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
If we are interested, we'll call them. Them calling us isn't going to get them hired.
This is very good to know and I can see a lot of managers operating in this manner. Things are just different now than they were before and technology is the primary reason for this. Before the only contact was in person and by phone so it automatically was a good thing to put your face with the application and follow up with a phone call to make sure the busy manager hadn't forgot about you. Now there's just too many people looking for jobs and peoples work load have doubled in responsibility, so people are trying to cut anything they view as unnecessary and trivial.
My friend had a group interview today and wondered if she should have got the recruiters info to send her a thank you note. Since she still has to be granted a 1 on 1 interview with the hiring manager, I told her a thank you note to the recruiter would likely be unnecessary because the recruiters job is to make sure she is qualified for the position and presents herself well but she does not make any hiring decisions. The recruiter also told her she would get a response via phone or e-mail of her status. So the recruiter is probably going to forward her info to the manager which means only her qualifications will be considered and not the fact that she sent a thank you note to the recruiter. However she'll certainly send a thank you note to the hiring manager.
Last edited by Shysister; 02-28-2012 at 11:28 PM..
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