Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Have you ever worked with engineers from the department of transportation? I've worked with dozens, and I can confidently say only 2 have my respect.
A couple years ago, the DOT started approving pay for performance (PFP) contracts with contractors. What it means is the contractors will no longer be directed by engineers. They can do whatever the hell they want and they get paid for it at the end.
Myself along with many other consultants were objecting to this left and right. The DOT engineers were cheering, though. Less work for them. They no longer have to be out there directing the contractors to do the work right.
Early this year, I had a conversation with a guy from the DOT. He's one of those that supported the PFP contracts. Less work for him. So, one day I purposely drove us out of the way onto a highway that was completed last year. The road was not even 1 year old and it was breaking apart. There were cracks everywhere. I then stopped at a section that was particularly bad. It was falling apart. Then I told them this entire stretch of the highway was a PFP project. Not even 1 year old and it was already falling apart.
All good engineers in the private sector have stories for you regarding the laziness of engineers in the public sector.
I'm sorry but I simply don't observe what you say about attracting and retaining good people with job security. It does, however, attract hordes of people who want to do the absolute minimum amount and quality of work that they can get away with.
One more thing. I don't understand why people keep saying the private sector does not have job security. Do a good job, work smart, and be innovative and companies will fight each other over you. My current company headhunted me to join them. Last week, a recruiter from another large engineering firm contacted me. I turned them down, though. I don't want to be known as a job hopper.
Burger Fan works for the department of corrections. there are just shy of about a thousand union employees here in the building, mostly officers with maintenance and food service thrown in. another 300 or so non union employees that are still public sector- teachers, managers, IT staff, counselors, nurses, dentists, psychiatrists. No engineers, but I think I have a pretty decent perspective here.
It is very difficult to recruit for certain positions (medical, business management and IT in particular) because the private sector pays more. A LOT more in most cases. I myself took a paycut coming here over a management position with a large industrial distributor. Job security and benefits are one of the few things that stand out as a reason for people to come here, rather than elsewhere.
double edit: and as for why I say that job security doesn't exist, I've seen firsthand several hundred co-workers lose jobs overnight with no notice as an entire division was eliminated due to a "change in corporate strategy" with no other explanation. layoffs at other firms for the purpose of inflating stock prices and handing out bonuses to shareholders aren't exactly rare either. Look in your local financial news and keep track of big mergers- what do you think happens there? Inevitably it's "layoffs" since the merged entity inevitably has "redundant" positions and people lose jobs, no matter how hard they work or how innovative they are. Not so bad if you're 30, but try getting hired at 55. Suddenly you'll find that not as many doors are open to you.
The concept of loyalty is pretty much dead on both sides these days.
Last edited by Burger Fan; 09-14-2015 at 12:27 PM..
Burger Fan works for the department of corrections. there are just shy of about a thousand union employees here in the building, mostly officers with maintenance and food service thrown in. another 300 or so non union employees that are still public sector- teachers, managers, IT staff, counselors, nurses, dentists, psychiatrists. No engineers, but I think I have a pretty decent perspective here.
It is very difficult to recruit for certain positions (medical, business management and IT in particular) because the private sector pays more. A LOT more in most cases. I myself took a paycut coming here over a management position with a large industrial distributor. Job security and benefits are one of the few things that stand out as a reason for people to come here, rather than elsewhere.
double edit: and as for why I say that job security doesn't exist, I've seen firsthand several hundred co-workers lose jobs overnight with no notice as an entire division was eliminated due to a "change in corporate strategy" with no other explanation. layoffs at other firms for the purpose of inflating stock prices and handing out bonuses to shareholders aren't exactly rare either. Look in your local financial news and keep track of big mergers- what do you think happens there? Inevitably it's "layoffs" since the merged entity inevitably has "redundant" positions and people lose jobs, no matter how hard they work or how innovative they are. Not so bad if you're 30, but try getting hired at 55. Suddenly you'll find that not as many doors are open to you.
The concept of loyalty is pretty much dead on both sides these days.
Well, as I said before, I get my job security by having established my name in the industry. Say tomorrow they shut down my department and we are all out of the job. I have 2 companies who will take me in any time. And that's nothing. My brother, who I just brought in to be a general project manager overseeing several projects, passed over 4 other offers to join my company. One of them called him and told him if it doesn't work out with this company just give them a call and the office over in their company is his.
So, to us in the private sector, job security comes from how well/smart we've worked and how established we are in the profession. Like I said, I'm not worried. If I lose my job on Friday, I have a few phone numbers I can call and be back working on Monday.
Last edited by MetroWord; 09-14-2015 at 02:20 PM..
Why would the engineers suddenly stop designing roads that held up just because they don't have to hand hold the contractors anymore? Its not like building a road is some kind of R&D work (unless its over really challenging terrain but even then I think that's all been figured out). It sounds like the engineering was fine its just that the engineers did not have to spend nights and weekends out baby sitting construction crews doing work and could be at home with the wife and kids which they were excited for. That's part of the reason people choose to go to school for 4-6 years and get their PE so that they are not out standing in the rain hand holding contractors. They can go home and play with their kids and have sex with their wife.
Sounds like they need better crews who are doing the actual work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroWord
Have you ever worked with engineers from the department of transportation? I've worked with dozens, and I can confidently say only 2 have my respect.
A couple years ago, the DOT started approving pay for performance (PFP) contracts with contractors. What it means is the contractors will no longer be directed by engineers. They can do whatever the hell they want and they get paid for it at the end.
Myself along with many other consultants were objecting to this left and right. The DOT engineers were cheering, though. Less work for them. They no longer have to be out there directing the contractors to do the work right.
Early this year, I had a conversation with a guy from the DOT. He's one of those that supported the PFP contracts. Less work for him. So, one day I purposely drove us out of the way onto a highway that was completed last year. The road was not even 1 year old and it was breaking apart. There were cracks everywhere. I then stopped at a section that was particularly bad. It was falling apart. Then I told them this entire stretch of the highway was a PFP project. Not even 1 year old and it was already falling apart.
All good engineers in the private sector have stories for you regarding the laziness of engineers in the public sector.
I'm sorry but I simply don't observe what you say about attracting and retaining good people with job security. It does, however, attract hordes of people who want to do the absolute minimum amount and quality of work that they can get away with.
One more thing. I don't understand why people keep saying the private sector does not have job security. Do a good job, work smart, and be innovative and companies will fight each other over you. My current company headhunted me to join them. Last week, a recruiter from another large engineering firm contacted me. I turned them down, though. I don't want to be known as a job hopper.
Why would the engineers suddenly stop designing roads that held up just because they don't have to hand hold the contractors anymore? Its not like building a road is some kind of R&D work (unless its over really challenging terrain but even then I think that's all been figured out). It sounds like the engineering was fine its just that the engineers did not have to spend nights and weekends out baby sitting construction crews doing work and could be at home with the wife and kids which they were excited for. That's part of the reason people choose to go to school for 4-6 years and get their PE so that they are not out standing in the rain hand holding contractors. They can go home and play with their kids and have sex with their wife.
Sounds like they need better crews who are doing the actual work.
Contractors always look for ways to cut corners where they can. When projects are run by honest to god engineers, the materials used, the means and methods, how many passes, etc. have to be approved by the engineer. For PFP contracts, the contractors can do whatever the hell they want. So, they just use the cheapest crap they can buy on the market and cut down the compaction times to save money.
PFP contracts were pushed through by none other than yours truly state republicans who wanted to save money by proposing that they let the contractors police themselves.
So I am pretty sure that govt contractors are required to be licenced and bonded so if they screw things up just pull their licencing and bonding. It is not a trivial matter for a contractor to get bonded for big projects.
Also start giving more weight for technical on contract bids, just because someone is the low bidder does not mean that's what you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroWord
Contractors always look for ways to cut corners where they can. When projects are run by honest to god engineers, the materials used, the means and methods, how many passes, etc. have to be approved by the engineer. For PFP contracts, the contractors can do whatever the hell they want. So, they just use the cheapest crap they can buy on the market and cut down the compaction times to save money.
PFP contracts were pushed through by none other than yours truly state republicans who wanted to save money by proposing that they let the contractors police themselves.
So I am pretty sure that govt contractors are required to be licenced and bonded so if they screw things up just pull their licencing and bonding. It is not a trivial matter for a contractor to get bonded for big projects.
Also start giving more weight for technical on contract bids, just because someone is the low bidder does not mean that's what you want.
And if everybody be nice with each other we wouldn't have any war. Good luck with your fantasy land scenario.
Several months ago, I took a job as a middle manager. They assigned me this guy that had previously been working at the department of transportation for 7 years. Ever since, it's nothing but headaches with him. His work are always littered with errors. His reports are extremely vague to a point where I question he even went to inspect the construction sites at all. Whenever things happened at the construction sites, I always found out from the contractor, never from my guy. I even caught him sleeping in his car. I was then told many people had seen him sleep in his car before.
I brought these problems up with his old boss and his old boss laughingly told me now you know how I felt.
This Friday was his last day. Been a long time coming.
How did this guy manage to stay with the DOT for 7 years with all the bad habits? He was at one point a project manager, which I still find an incredible fact.
I know state workers pride themselves with their job security. But is it really a good thing? I'm sure there are many hard working state workers, but it appears the system of job security can't deal with lazy workers.
Unfortunately there will always be someone willing to game the system. Let's try to remember that for every one like him there are twenty state workers with a good work ethic. The smartest thing that state government can do is hire someone with twenty years of private sector experience. The private sector is down right gladiatorial and a former private sector worker knows better than to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
In parting let me add that state unions are there to protect workers against the occasional illegal and arbitrary firing. Those workers that game the system and give people like Scott Walker anti union ammunition can go to hell.
Unfortunately there will always be someone willing to game the system. Let's try to remember that for every one like him there are twenty state workers with a good work ethic. The smartest thing that state government can do is hire someone with twenty years of private sector experience. The private sector is down right gladiatorial and a former private sector worker knows better than to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
In parting let me add that state unions are there to protect workers against the occasional illegal and arbitrary firing. Those workers that game the system and give people like Scott Walker anti union ammunition can go to hell.
You wrote that "His work are always littered with errors." When one complains about a person's works as being "littered with errors," then it is reasonable to expect that the complainer's own "work" is not "littered with errors."
If English is not your first language, then don't post without first writing down what you want to say and checking it offline after you have corrected it, especially considering you are complaining about someone's errors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroWord
Well, I did make clear that I was talking about engineers, not news paper writers. I fail to see how your nitpicking contribute to the conversation. Are you saying that I am expected to be grammatically perfect if I catch mistakes in other people's calculations?
Edit
Can you explain to me what was wrong with my original statement?
Where are you? Can you please tell me what was wrong with my original phrase so I can improve my English skills?
I'm not an English major and can't recall precise definitions, but I do know what didn't sound correct here. When you talk about work, it's singular.
The correct way to construct that sentence would be:
"His work is always littered with errors."
Are is paired with a plural:
"His projects are always littered with errors."
We pushed on you a little because you were complaining about someone's careless errors, while being guilty of one yourself. No matter how trivial, it was hypocritical. Plus, it was hilarious.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Cancer on the system
