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Yes before there was true competition, US tool and die makers had it easy.
You have been trolling in this whole thread. I am too lazy to quote all your one-liners that just instigate folks to write stuff back. It is clear there is nothing you are trying to contribute to the discussion but throw a line out and watch the after effects.
No we dont want those jobs but we also dont want 0 cash flow either. Unfortunately the only outcome that can prevent the average american from becoming slaves to companies is civil war.
No. We just don't want them for low wages and the destruction of our backyards.
We do need to maintain some industrial capacity as a means of remaining self reliant and capable of servicing our own domestic needs, if push came to shove. The world doesn't have to revolve around making a buck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer
Just because we dont want those jobs does not mean we want to be destitute. America is not really bennifiting from outsourcing other than a hand full of people. THAT is the real issue.
Its one thing for the guy that worked hard his whole life to make a few million bucks, its a completely other thing for someone to be so groteskly rich that they can influance laws and outcomes because they have hundreds of millions or billions. No one is wroth a billion dollars, I dont care what "mad skills" you have. The only reason they are able to accumulate that wealth is because its illegal for the people they screwed to kill them and their families.
People would be more careful about their buisness dealings if those sorts of consequences were on the table.
If you want efficiency, and outsourcing can be relied upon, it's plain stupid not to outsource tasks you do not excel at.
You're angry because capitalism pits the masses against one another in competition. Those who generate wealth are rewarding with a share of the wealth created. They can use this wealth to create more wealth. It's a very efficient. But people are often screwed when they overextend trust. Kinda like how the corporations convinced the masses that unions were evil. Lol. Not my fault people are stupid. Sometimes, people get exactly what they ask for.
You have been trolling in this whole thread. I am too lazy to quote all your one-liners that just instigate folks to write stuff back. It is clear there is nothing you are trying to contribute to the discussion but throw a line out and watch the after effects.
Wrong. Just stating facts. I wish we had more here who looked forward to global competition, as I grew up in a generation that would welcome all comers. This generation was told they were all "special snowflakes", and at the first sign of global competition, is doing nothing to figure out how to compete with the world.
Wrong. Just stating facts. I wish we had more here who looked forward to global competition, as I grew up in a generation that would welcome all comers. This generation was told they were all "special snowflakes", and at the first sign of global competition, is doing nothing to figure out how to compete with the world.
What global competition?
One of the major reasons North and South went to war back a few hundred years ago (besides major differences like slavery being right or wrong) was the fact that South had an abundance of free slave labor - there was no way for North to compete with that.
You cannot compete ad infinitum with the supply of cheap labor elsewhere and keep telling your own people to just retrain esp. when more and more people need college education to be competitive at all - but all college does is create more debt slaves via the student loan programs and rising tuition. Maybe people like their cheaper electronics but they cannot feed it to their hungry child or use it to cure their cancer or get a surgery.
I know it feels good to say this stuff from where you are probably sitting but I doubt you would so "blaze" telling this over a beer in a crowd of a few machinists whose jobs were just sent over to China because of nothing else but the fact that they cost more to feed, clothe and insure all the while knowing that all the savings went to the bottom line of the guy who is running the company. That's merciless, people see it and don't like it. If this was only about companies staying afloat - great - but the compensation packages of CEOs have been rising WAY past that. Even many failed CEOs walk out with many millions in compensation. They just move on to the next place where one of their golf buddies hooked them up.
The reason Apple is one of the largest U.S. corporations is because they can realize huge profits by making stuff in China and avoiding taxes in United States. By making stuff here they could still be profitable, only they would profit less. So it is not about global competition, it is about being a greedy POS.
Finally, with the healthcare costs rising, education costs rising, wages not following inflation rate, middle class shrinking, the income gap widening etc. etc. - I think folks like you are losing their grip on reality - I think seeing people as "assets" (like machines or parts) or "head count" to just manipulate to fit your bottom line is clouding your judgment?
No we dont want those jobs but we also dont want 0 cash flow either. Unfortunately the only outcome that can prevent the average american from becoming slaves to companies is civil war.
Just because we dont want those jobs does not mean we want to be destitute. America is not really bennifiting from outsourcing other than a hand full of people. THAT is the real issue.
Its one thing for the guy that worked hard his whole life to make a few million bucks, its a completely other thing for someone to be so groteskly rich that they can influance laws and outcomes because they have hundreds of millions or billions. No one is wroth a billion dollars, I dont care what "mad skills" you have. The only reason they are able to accumulate that wealth is because its illegal for the people they screwed to kill them and their families.
People would be more careful about their buisness dealings if those sorts of consequences were on the table.
Really?
Where's the computer you're typing on this made? China. Costs a lot less because it was made there. Where are your clothes made? Sri Lanka or Bangladesh maybe. Fact is, most of the stuff in your household probably came from somewhere else and you benefited greatly from that in cheaper prices. Maybe you're one of those rare people who isn't a hypocrite and put your money where your mouth is and didn't greatly benefit from it because you went out of your way to buy things made in the USA whenever possible. No matter. You may not be benefiting but the vast majority of us are.
Reality of anarchy isn't so great. Usually what happens is the people with the big sticks oppress the masses. Sure, everyone once in a while the lemmings crush the big stick but mostly they just suffer or someone else with a bigger stick comes along and clobbers the other guy who used to be the big stick. The meek only inherit the earth in fairy tales.
One of the major reasons North and South went to war back a few hundred years ago (besides major differences like slavery being right or wrong) was the fact that South had an abundance of free slave labor - there was no way for North to compete with that.
You cannot compete ad infinitum with the supply of cheap labor elsewhere and keep telling your own people to just retrain esp. when more and more people need college education to be competitive at all - but all college does is create more debt slaves via the student loan programs and rising tuition. Maybe people like their cheaper electronics but they cannot feed it to their hungry child or use it to cure their cancer or get a surgery.
I know it feels good to say this stuff from where you are probably sitting but I doubt you would so "blaze" telling this over a beer in a crowd of a few machinists whose jobs were just sent over to China because of nothing else but the fact that they cost more to feed, clothe and insure all the while knowing that all the savings went to the bottom line of the guy who is running the company. That's merciless, people see it and don't like it. If this was only about companies staying afloat - great - but the compensation packages of CEOs have been rising WAY past that. Even many failed CEOs walk out with many millions in compensation. They just move on to the next place where one of their golf buddies hooked them up.
The reason Apple is one of the largest U.S. corporations is because they can realize huge profits by making stuff in China and avoiding taxes in United States. By making stuff here they could still be profitable, only they would profit less. So it is not about global competition, it is about being a greedy POS.
Finally, with the healthcare costs rising, education costs rising, wages not following inflation rate, middle class shrinking, the income gap widening etc. etc. - I think folks like you are losing their grip on reality - I think seeing people as "assets" (like machines or parts) or "head count" to just manipulate to fit your bottom line is clouding your judgment?
Apple does make stuff here.
Could they make everything here? No, not in the short term. Even in the long-term it's dubious. The fact is we don't have a million or so people who want repetitive low-paying jobs working on assembly lines. We have those jobs as is and they're often hiring. Go check out Fluke in WA or similar. They have high turnover because the jobs suck and there's lots of better opportunities. Even if we had a desperate workforce that would fill those million or so jobs, we really don't want the environmental consequences in our backyard. Meanwhile with Apple products being more expensive and struggling to hold onto their marketshare as is, expect Samsung, LG, and so on to eat into Apple's market share further.
One of the major reasons North and South went to war back a few hundred years ago (besides major differences like slavery being right or wrong) was the fact that South had an abundance of free slave labor - there was no way for North to compete with that.
You cannot compete ad infinitum with the supply of cheap labor elsewhere and keep telling your own people to just retrain esp. when more and more people need college education to be competitive at all - but all college does is create more debt slaves via the student loan programs and rising tuition. Maybe people like their cheaper electronics but they cannot feed it to their hungry child or use it to cure their cancer or get a surgery.
Nice story, but we still have a tremendous amount of US manufacturing, so it isn't just low product cost. I work in the management side of US mfg, and we have often at our subsidiaries insourced product initially bought from Asian suppliers , once the quantity justified automating most of the Asian manual labor. We also have subsidiaries who have produced product in America for decades, and who will continue doing so. (I won't name the corps, but a prior one is like a Beatrice of sorts, people use their products, w/o buying them, at places they go. And more often than not, what they are using is American made with mostly US labor components.)
You , like most, ignore "landed costs" which is what matters. Yes it includes labor where Asia has the edge, but add in material, add duty/customs, freight over thousands of miles of ocean, offloading costs at US port, cost from US port to where you want it..and very often the lowest cost is no longer Asia.
But yes, if US loses on landed cost basis, retraining for stuff we win on, or alternate career, is prudent.
Nice story, but we still have a tremendous amount of US manufacturing, so it isn't just low product cost. I work in the management side of US mfg, and we have often at our subsidiaries insourced product initially bought from Asian suppliers , once the quantity justified automating most of the Asian manual labor. We also have subsidiaries who have produced product in America for decades, and who will continue doing so. (I won't name the corps, but a prior one is like a Beatrice of sorts, people use their products, w/o buying them, at places they go. And more often than not, what they are using is American made with mostly US labor components.)
You , like most, ignore "landed costs" which is what matters. Yes it includes labor where Asia has the edge, but add in material, add duty/customs, freight over thousands of miles of ocean, offloading costs at US port, cost from US port to where you want it..and very often the lowest cost is no longer Asia.
But yes, if US loses on landed cost basis, retraining for stuff we win on, or alternate career, is prudent.
How did I know you worked on the management side of things?
Please, you make it sound like Apple is almost losing by making stuff in China. How do they get to make so much profit then? What is the calculation in order to realize THAT much profit to sit on $100 billion in cash that you do not pay any taxes on?
How do you think a country like China gets to start building super sophisticated aircraft carriers? Where does the tech come from? In the long run, we are playing a dangerous game - and why? For corporate short term profit.
But hey, you get to deal with stuff on paper, get a bonus and a 2nd home somewhere and tell everyone how you welcome "global competition".
How did I know you worked on the management side of things?
Please, you make it sound like Apple is almost losing by making stuff in China. How do they get to make so much profit then? What is the calculation in order to realize THAT much profit to sit on $100 billion in cash that you do not pay any taxes on?
.
Apple deals with products that are more economical to make in Asia, specifically labor intensive, nests well (as 40' containers cost the same to ship no matter how much room you utilize), and in addition, they sell tons in Asia as well, so much of the production is close to their customer base.
You are incredibly behind the times. the bulk of offshoring happened a few decades ago. The reason mfg jobs will continue declining now is mostly automation. We had a subsidiary at my last corp which has about 90 production employees in 2014-20 working on a product line not existing until 2000, 70 working on lines they have had for 50 years. Those 70 make more product now than 350 made producing the same stuff 25 years ago. And the 70 can be reduced further to most likely a minimum of 50-55. They are benevolent though, and will use retirements to avoid layoffs, backfilling them with temps til automation eliminates the position. But you fail to see the "280 missing jobs", focusing instead of offshoring which is nowhere near the movement it was 20 years ago.
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