African music and dance (cheap, country, influence, cost)
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Miami bass it self outdate "triggerman beat" Which came out in mid 80's. "Drag Rap" by the Showboys. New Orleans came into being the late 80's early 90s.
Drag Rap itself is early Hiphop/Ectro song from New York. A lot of early hip hop in NY was 808, Miami bass basically extent the use of the 808 drum machine. Hence Bass music. Stuff like the elongate bass note from 808 was created itself in the miami bass scene and stuff like drum rolls, and running hit hats became the norm in Miami bass. These are things that directly influence New Orleans bounce. In fact you can hear it in Some of songs by the New Orleans bounce artists you mention.
The term twerk was also regularly used in Atlanta before Ying Yang Twinz
As some who grew up between Texas and Georgia, let me tell you. Being from Texas is most definitely not give you more insight of black America culture over Atlanta. You could put Georgia, Florida, SC, and NC in Texas, and would be like 3x times the amount of Black people.
What I'm saying there was never a official term. And tweking was never viewed as a specific move, So what is wining and Tweking over laps. The difference is like the difference between rapping in Hiphop and DJaying in Dancehall. It's actually very similar the difference is mainly the culture and music. Thus Sean Paul is not called a rapper. My point is in The South terms like wine would never be used even if the dances are similar Black American associate terms like with Dancehall with the West indies.
This similar to some the African dances. Though some those are more structural.
Yeah none of this is coincidence.
I see some modern African dances to African pop genres as basically going "we can do that too" and we can a little tradition in it.
Miami bass biggest influence was Mantronix and T La Rock. The same era of NY hip-hop that influenced Miami influenced New Orleans too. Miami bass didn't influence Bounce. Miami took more of the Mantronix style and put their own local twist to it. New Orleans took that sound and the Triggerman beat.
Miami Bass heavily influenced early Atlanta hip-hop music, it didn't influence any other part of the South's early hip-hop scene. Not New Orleans, not Memphis, not Houston ,etc.
And Showboys "Drag Rap" had a different tempo than other Electro funk records in the 80s. Also must we forget the influence Electro funk had on other regions such as early LA hip-hop scene (Egyptian Lover, Wreckin Cru) and Detroit.
Still, Bounce music is different. The usage of 808's is identical but it's different. Not to mention the architects of that sound like Mannie Fresh, KLC, DJ Jubilee,etc. don't credit Miami Bass for influencing or creating their sound.
Matter fact the only New Orleans artist that come close to that Miami influence was Freak Nasty. And Freak Nasty had moved to Atlanta and lived there for awhile before he recorded that record.
Buck Jump Time was the predecessor to Bounce music. This was before the Triggerman beat and this record was in 89. https://youtu.be/DLnNCg1egVA
There's a clear distinction in sound between the early Miami Bass sound and the early Bounce sound. Bounce is essentially 808's, call and response and Mardi Gras Indian chants. That's different than Miami bass.
As far as the term Twerk, New Orleans created that period. Atlanta has always been a crossroads of different regions because of it's location, HBCU's, and attraction for Black transplants. With that Atlanta has always been a hub that borrowed other regions styles in the south and made it there own. With that said, twerk is not credited to Atlanta. It's New Orleans/Louisiana.
And I didn't attribute me being from Texas as somehow me being the end all be all to Black culture but my proximity and relationship to Louisiana and New Orleans gives me better insight to their cultural contribution due to me having more familiarity than you.
I grew up an hour away from the Louisiana border and would take regular trips to the state throughout my life. Being that you probably grew up in Atlanta, I can see how you would think Miami is the end all be all when it comes to influence and contributions. Miami HEAVILY influenced the A back in the 80's and early 90s. When Atlanta couldn't find their sound during that period they borrowed from Miami.
Miami bass biggest influence was Mantronix and T La Rock. The same era of NY hip-hop that influenced Miami influenced New Orleans too. Miami bass didn't influence Bounce. Miami took more of the Mantronix style and put their own local twist to it. New Orleans took that sound and the Triggerman beat.
Miami Bass heavily influenced early Atlanta hip-hop music, it didn't influence any other part of the South's early hip-hop scene. Not New Orleans, not Memphis, not Houston ,etc.
And Showboys "Drag Rap" had a different tempo than other Electro funk records in the 80s. Also must we forget the influence Electro funk had on other regions such as early LA hip-hop scene (Egyptian Lover, Wreckin Cru) and Detroit.
Still, Bounce music is different. The usage of 808's is identical but it's different. Not to mention the architects of that sound like Mannie Fresh, KLC, DJ Jubilee,etc. don't credit Miami Bass for influencing or creating their sound.
Matter fact the only New Orleans artist that come close to that Miami influence was Freak Nasty. And Freak Nasty had moved to Atlanta and lived there for awhile before he recorded that record.
Buck Jump Time was the predecessor to Bounce music. This was before the Triggerman beat and this record was in 89. https://youtu.be/DLnNCg1egVA
There's a clear distinction in sound between the early Miami Bass sound and the early Bounce sound. Bounce is essentially 808's, call and response and Mardi Gras Indian chants. That's different than Miami bass.
As far as the term Twerk, New Orleans created that period. Atlanta has always been a crossroads of different regions because of it's location, HBCU's, and attraction for Black transplants. With that Atlanta has always been a hub that borrowed other regions styles in the south and made it there own. With that said, twerk is not credited to Atlanta. It's New Orleans/Louisiana.
And I didn't attribute me being from Texas as somehow me being the end all be all to Black culture but my proximity and relationship to Louisiana and New Orleans gives me better insight to their cultural contribution due to me having more familiarity than you.
I grew up an hour away from the Louisiana border and would take regular trips to the state throughout my life. Being that you probably grew up in Atlanta, I can see how you would think Miami is the end all be all when it comes to influence and contributions. Miami HEAVILY influenced the A back in the 80's and early 90s. When Atlanta couldn't find their sound during that period they borrowed from Miami.
That incorrect Bass Rock express was not the first Miami Bass record it was first gain popularity beyond Miami
I never said New Orleans bounce was the extract same as Miami Bass I said it influence New Orleans bounce. And that clear by timing New Orleans bounce scene came a good 4 to 5 years after Miami Bass. Then most oblivious particular way the 808 is use in New Orleans. New Orleans bounce is basically a distinct sub genre of Miami Bass.
"Drag Rap" was popular sample use but it did not have drum rolls, rolling hi hats, and 808 elongate bass kicks and lines. Mantronix a NYers creative the rolling drum rolls but it still wasn't popular in NY. How ever it became popular and common staple in Miami bass. With that said the elongate bass kicks was something creative Miami bass entirely. It was not use in early NY electro and Hip hop 808 use at all. Then suddenly by early 90s. Most New Orleans bounce make use of those features with Miami bass.
Yeah, I would say the early ’80s in New Orleans was all Miami bass. But the crazy thing is we’d been on those tempos. It took that name because there were so many songs coming out of Miami that had that tempo, Roland 808 songs. The first drum machine I was in love with was the Roland 808. This whole song was an 808 and a keyboard. We realy didn’t have nothing that was sequenced at the time, you had to play. But to this day I know there’s a lot of reverb on the vocals but the drum machine sounds awesome.
NOZ
Now, at what point did the music start to become distinctively New Orleans hip-hop, separate from the Miami thing and “Planet Rock”?
MANNIE FRESH
When New Orleans bounce music came along it defined us as having our own thing. Miami bass belonged to Miami, but most of the artists that were coming out, the few artists that were in New Orleans at that time, it was right around the same sound as Miami bass. So we still didn’t have anything that defined us
The record you did with Gregory D was right before bounce really got started, right?
Yeah. Me and Greg’s style was more Miami bass. That’s what was popping at the time, when I was doing songs with Greg. Miami bass is what the south, what hip-hop sounded like to us in that era. In the '80s, everyone from New Orleans, from Atlanta and whatever, were all over Miami bass. So a lot of me and Greg’s songs were Miami bass driven.
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No it doesn't but by the 70's and 80's the Black population in Southeast that's AL, GA, FL, SC, Eastern TN is likely twice, TX, AR, LA, MS, and Western TN combine. I said precivelouly New Orleans was important city in African American culture but by the 1940s the city became fall behind other cities in the South and other cities across the country in Black influence. The cities and regions New Orleans influence for over a century took those influences created something new and started to influence New Orleans back. New Orleasn Jazz influence the Jump Blues "R&B" in places like Memphis. but later Memphis etc R&B influence NY Hip Hop, Hip Hop, influence Miami Bass as subgenre which in return influence New Orleans bounce. As today new Orleans basically a smaller major city. Metro Atlanta reach a million in 1960's people before New Orleans did. by 1971 publications such a Ebony started label the black mecca on Atlanta. Atlanta is known for black education. It was home to 4 HCBU's just inside the city alone.
And Black collage students are what set the tone, by the Early 80's Atlanta became home to freaknik. Which a giant Black spring break event at it's peak over 200,000 was visiting Atlanta for that weekned.
I never said Atlanta started twerking at least not solo anyways the dance it self always done in a small degrees in Black juke joints across the south, in larger Jazz halls by black dancers, black striptease etc. especially across the south in general. but I thought Ying Yang started the "term" but never less it was term that used in Atlanta long before the Ying Yang track.
The dances were done long before term "twerk" and even term "twerk" gain popularity, as started before twerking was just one of dozens names.
One thing for sure then New Orleans bounce didn't have widespread videos by late 80's and 90's the act of "twerking" was already widespread in Miami Bass videos from Miami and Atlanta. These artists had videos with dancing it.
Mantronix defined the new sound of electro-funk. Mantronik used a polyrhythmic style, similar to West African log drumming, but instead of acoustic drums, the rhythm would be carried by the combination of electronic drums, synthesizer, vocoder and/or synthesized voice over a bass line completely played on the synth. No samples of James Brown here. This was truly electronic music: spare, funky and immensely danceable, an homage and simultaneous extension of old-school hip hop’s electronic template that had started with “Planet Rock” in 1982.
Mantronix NY artists, while Kurtis Mantronik was actually from Jamaica. but.... Mantronix's drum programming did not gain popularity in NY, as it did the South. The South basically took the Drumming and expanded it. but 808 was program to used a polyrhythmic style as in Africa.
Now it make even more sense The rolling drums of today Trap music and several hip hop subgenre of South, Miami Bass, New Orleans, Crunk and etc was modern imitation of polyrhythmic african druming with the 808.
Those Dancing of Congolese Soukous can be done to most Trap music. vice versa.
That incorrect Bass Rock express was not the first Miami Bass record it was first gain popularity beyond Miami
I never said New Orleans bounce was the extract same as Miami Bass I said it influence New Orleans bounce. And that clear by timing New Orleans bounce scene came a good 4 to 5 years after Miami Bass. Then most oblivious particular way the 808 is use in New Orleans. New Orleans bounce is basically a distinct sub genre of Miami Bass.
"Drag Rap" was popular sample use but it did not have drum rolls, rolling hi hats, and 808 elongate bass kicks and lines. Mantronix a NYers creative the rolling drum rolls but it still wasn't popular in NY. How ever it became popular and common staple in Miami bass. With that said the elongate bass kicks was something creative Miami bass entirely. It was not use in early NY electro and Hip hop 808 use at all. Then suddenly by early 90s. Most New Orleans bounce make use of those features with Miami bass.
No it doesn't but by the 70's and 80's the Black population in Southeast that's AL, GA, FL, SC, Eastern TN is likely twice, TX, AR, LA, MS, and Western TN combine. I said precivelouly New Orleans was important city in African American culture but by the 1940s the city became fall behind other cities in the South and other cities across the country in Black influence. The cities and regions New Orleans influence for over a century took those influences created something new and started to influence New Orleans back. New Orleasn Jazz influence the Jump Blues "R&B" in places like Memphis. but later Memphis etc R&B influence NY Hip Hop, Hip Hop, influence Miami Bass as subgenre which in return influence New Orleans bounce. As today new Orleans basically a smaller major city. Metro Atlanta reach a million in 1960's people before New Orleans did. by 1971 publications such a Ebony started label the black mecca on Atlanta. Atlanta is known for black education. It was home to 4 HCBU's just inside the city alone.
And Black collage students are what set the tone, by the Early 80's Atlanta became home to freaknik. Which a giant Black spring break event at it's peak over 200,000 was visiting Atlanta for that weekned.
I never said Atlanta started twerking at least not solo anyways the dance it self always done in a small degrees in Black juke joints across the south, in larger Jazz halls by black dancers, black striptease etc. especially across the south in general. but I thought Ying Yang started the "term" but never less it was term that used in Atlanta long before the Ying Yang track.
The dances were done long before term "twerk" and even term "twerk" gain popularity, as started before twerking was just one of dozens names.
One thing for sure then New Orleans bounce didn't have widespread videos by late 80's and 90's the act of "twerking" was already widespread in Miami Bass videos from Miami and Atlanta. These artists had videos with dancing it.
Well if Mannie Fresh said it himself I STAND CORRECTED and don't mind admitting I was wrong about Miami Bass influence. So yeah I clearly underestimated Miami bass reach in New Orleans.
I still stand by my statement that New Orleans invented the term Twerk. Not the dance but the term twerk. I wasn't crediting New Orleans for creating what we would later call twerking, booty shaking, wining,etc. I know these dances were regularly displayed all throughout the south in general to pinpoint it to one particular place of origin.
I never said African American culture was monolithic but you seem think everything exist in isloation, happen at the same time, and par with each other.. You don't seem understand that New Orleans, and Low country influence All of Black America. New Orleans and Low country influence the Mississippi delta. In fact you could argue they are most impacting historical areas shaping black American culture going back centuries.
New Orleans isn't the biggest city now but during the time in early on America and before the civil war it was the 3rd largest city in the US in 1840, it was the mecca and the dominate city of the south, it was the largest city in the South for nearly a century 1820 - 1940. in 1880 is was 7x larger than any other city in deep south. Even with slaves that didn't go though New Orleans, New Orleans was still the biggest megaphone of culture in the South.
And likewise the low country "Sea islands" over half Georgia and South Carolina. over half Slaves enter the country came in the low country. This have significant infact over black religious expressing. Even now most known negro spiritual the overwhelmingly majority came from this area.
No
And this ironic your telling me "You are fully aware that African American culture doesnt come from a monolith" but you atleast speak as if there was monolith cultural of US and Caribbean you could define in 1810.
"Time"
Biloxi 1699
Mobile 1702
New Orleans 1718
French and indian war - 1754–1763
The louisiana purchase happen 1803,
Haitian revolution 1791-1804
-------------- Mississippi statehod 1817
What your failing to understand is New Orleans just became part of US when the Haitian revolution ended because the Louisiana purchase. before so it was literally French and Spanish. infact most of the North American inland was French and Spanish just 50 years before that.
Your saying " interfaced with the multi generational African American cultures of the South." When most of those African Americans came there in gulf which already in are govern by French and Spanish for two century. There reason why Haitian slave holder went to New Orleans. because there already cultural connection between French Louisiana and Creabean.
What is "American" was something young and evolving. What is America didn't reach Cali until 1949. So it like trying define American culture before could define itself.
Otherwise the culture of New Orleans already had more common with French and Spanish Caribbean then it did with Pennsylvania before Haitian revolution even happen. So it pointless to say "Caribbean" influence because what was French Louisiana was already culturally related. Maybe Virginia was a huge contrast with the Caribbean but Louisiana and gulf never was.
First off Charleston is not apart of the DMV.... it's part of the low country, using Charleston to contrast New Orleans doesn't help your point. Because the Low Country also has one of strongest historical African influence in the Country. "Gullah culture" etc. Further your timing is off The Mississippi delta didn't become designation for slaves until centuries later after the low country and The Gulf coast, When slaves started happen more interior this was called "second passage". Then " roots of Gospel" comes from lowcountry. I literally just posted about the African influence with in the black church because of the history on low country on the last page. I even just posted a link about the creabean exchange between the lowcountry and creabean.
Your argument most slaves came though port of Charleston right? That's the low country that's the Gullah corridor.
Listen
Another problem is view slaves going from Haiti to Louisiana or Barbados to the low country different from slaves that went from Barbados to Jamaica. When I telling it doesn't matter. This was early on when European stats were just colonizating.
2. what is the US was evolving territory. You keep saying Mississippi Delta. The Mississippi delta slave population establish later on. The Mississippi delta is not the coast. And this also conflict with bring up Haitian influence of New Orleans because all of this was before develop in Mississippi delta. New Orleans was founded in 1718, Haitian revolution ended in 1804, Mississippi didn't become a state until 1817. Black history in New Orleans influenced the Mississippi delta one came first.
No New Orleans wasn't the biggest slave port but again it was The biggest city in the South. So what happen is New Orleans trends end up influencing other Black populations. This is how Harlem was known for Jazz because New Orleans influenced Harlem. it's influence Chicago, Detroit, DC and etc.
The Caribbean is creolize cultures, The Gulf and Low country are creolize cultures as well. What happen is longer generation of slaves stayed in interior"the second passage" the larger the decreolization. but because Gulf and Low Country had such large influence and most slaves came though these areas. There are elements of African Americans culture that come from partial evolution from African Culture.
Again You said the roots of Gospel comes from the Delta that incorrect. it comes from The Low Country. Otherwise The Blues come from Delta but Delta is influences by low country spiritual, Work songs and That ironically African influence.
Please explain why the speech patterns of Gullah Geechee peoples more closely correlate with those of Bajans located more than 1,000 miles away than it does with those black Americans located less than 100 miles inland. Gullah is an Afro CARIBBEAN creole language, related to other Afro Caribbean accents, ESPECIALLY in Barbados! This connection was because some of the earliest enslaved peoples in that region had been transported from Barbados and apparently these people set up the template for the speech developed by subsequent enslaved peoples.
New Orleans was NEVER an important port in the TransAtlantic slave trade. Even under French rule it is likely that most of the enslaved peoples there were sourced from St. Domingue (Haiti) so this Haitian connection is well established. New Orlean's role in the slave trade was about the movement of enslaved peoples from the Upper South to the Deep South. And with this trade would have come the cultures of the DMV region and the Low Country as well as with inland regions within the USA. So this is what makes NO special. NOT some direct connection to Africa, because by the time NO became a major slave trading port the Trans Atlantic trade into the USA had ended.
The USA and Brazil have comparable black populations, and yet fewer than 400k arrived directly in the USA from Africa vs 11x that number transported to Brazil. Clearly this will impact how the cultures of the black populations of each country evolved. Clearly the cultures of Brazil and the Caribbean have a stronger and more direct African imprint than is the case of those which evolved in the USA. Gullah peoples, often considered the most "African" in the USA, are in most closely connected to some of the least "African" in the Afro Caribbean cultures.
Please explain why the speech patterns of Gullah Geechee peoples more closely correlate with those of Bajans located more than 1,000 miles away than it does with those black Americans located less than 100 miles inland. Gullah is an Afro CARIBBEAN creole language, related to other Afro Caribbean accents, ESPECIALLY in Barbados! This connection was because some of the earliest enslaved peoples in that region had been transported from Barbados and apparently these people set up the template for the speech developed by subsequent enslaved peoples.
No dude.... At this point you literally calling things in America "Afro Caribbean" because your refusing to accept that America and Caribbean have some commonality in influences.
There a thing call West African pidgin English......... West African pidgin English influence and spread with the African diaspora. Otherwise Gullah is American but belongs same language family as Afro Caribbean deflects as in relation to West African pidgin English.
Again you have this view of separation between Caribbean and mainland north American slave ports, When I'm telling you it didn't exist. Even on East coast 10% of slaves came from Caribbean. So what now since the lines are blurr is All of American American culture "Afro Caribbean" Then your trying to define what is America culture before America or Caribbean for that matter could much cultural define themselves.
The English Colonies on the main land trade with English colonies in Caribbean.
The French and Spanish colonies on the on main land trade with English colonies in Caribbean.
"Please explain"
General African American accent is little different because decreolization. As slaves came to places like low country they oblivious spoke African language but as they was taken away from the coast over time a decreolization happen. The Caribbean are Islands that create isolation and yes I know Indian etc went to Caribbean but far more immigrants of way larger scale went to the US. Million of immigrants that make 100s of million people. The reason Gullah is still in the low country in Georgia and South Carolina is because they were more isolated so they was able retain a stronger creole later. But it's the low country this literally where most slaves, over 40% came in.
Quote:
New Orleans was NEVER an important port in the TransAtlantic slave trade. Even under French rule it is likely that most of the enslaved peoples there were sourced from St. Domingue (Haiti) so this Haitian connection is well established. New Orlean's role in the slave trade was about the movement of enslaved peoples from the Upper South to the Deep South. And with this trade would have come the cultures of the DMV region and the Low Country as well as with inland regions within the USA. So this is what makes NO special. NOT some direct connection to Africa, because by the time NO became a major slave trading port the Trans Atlantic trade into the USA had ended.
Whether you consider a "important port" or not doesn't change. Slaves were brought there under Spanish and French rules. Congo Square for example existed before the Haitian revolution. The point the culture was diffrent from the English colonies, otherwise N.O was already in tune with French and Spanish colonies. So you trying to argue it's influence by Hatti. I'm trying to tell you N.O already had a commonality with Hatti because they was govern by same European countries that force similar tolerances of the slaves culture and practices.
Also I don't care if it's direct African influence or came from Caribbean, because Caribbean would only transporting African influence. That was never my point. Cultures have been practice in Africa for hundreds to thousands of years Brought to the Caribbean for 50 to 100 then suddenly. We suppose given more credit to Hatti on Voodoo then West Africa come on now.
But my issue with you is you calling African American culture African Caribbean Culture to try to distant it from "African American culture". Which makes no literal sense.
Anything that happen in America by Blacks especially 200 plus years ago is by default African American. Not specifically just what was brought to the English colonies.
Then my point about New Orleans is it's influence later on. Regardless of how the African influence were brought there. New Orleans as largest city in South it cultural influences the rest of African Americans even Americans at large. Even if some family was enslave in North Carolina. Lets same they move to Harlem guess what was popular in Harlem? New Orleans music.
Quote:
The USA and Brazil have comparable black populations, and yet fewer than 400k arrived directly in the USA from Africa vs 11x that number transported to Brazil. Clearly this will impact how the cultures of the black populations of each country evolved. Clearly the cultures of Brazil and the Caribbean have a stronger and more direct African imprint than is the case of those which evolved in the USA. Gullah peoples, often considered the most "African" in the USA, are in most closely connected to some of the least "African" in the Afro Caribbean cultures.
The number of slaves isn't a relevant as percentage of slaves in a society is. If community had a high percentage of slaves it was able to retain more African influence.
Also
My point was never America has as much African influence as Caribbean. That your argument with yourself.
The point why I started debating with you, is you just trying to discredit anything African influence in America simply because you just don't want it be.
The point I was making African Americans took African influences fuse it with other cultures until evolved into Something New, This why Jazz happen in America but Samba happen in Brazil. It's oblivious Samba is African influence but Jazz you have understand the evolution.
No dude.... At this point you literally calling things in America "Afro Caribbean" because your refusing to accept that America and Caribbean have some commonality in influences.
There a thing call West African pidgin English......... West African pidgin English influence and spread with the African diaspora. Otherwise Gullah is American but belongs same language family as Afro Caribbean deflects as in relation to West African pidgin English.
Again you have this view of separation between Caribbean and mainland north American slave ports, When I'm telling you it didn't exist. Even on East coast 10% of slaves came from Caribbean. So what now since the lines are blurr is All of American American culture "Afro Caribbean" Then your trying to define what is America culture before America or Caribbean for that matter could much cultural define themselves.
The English Colonies on the main land trade with English colonies in Caribbean.
The French and Spanish colonies on the on main land trade with English colonies in Caribbean.
"Please explain"
General African American accent is little different because decreolization. As slaves came to places like low country they oblivious spoke African language but as they was taken away from the coast over time a decreolization happen. The Caribbean are Islands that create isolation and yes I know Indian etc went to Caribbean but far more immigrants of way larger scale went to the US. Million of immigrants that make 100s of million people. The reason Gullah is still in the low country in Georgia and South Carolina is because they were more isolated so they was able retain a stronger creole later. But it's the low country this literally where most slaves, over 40% came in.
Whether you consider a "important port" or not doesn't change. Slaves were brought there under Spanish and French rules. Congo Square for example existed before the Haitian revolution. The point the culture was diffrent from the English colonies, otherwise N.O was already in tune with French and Spanish colonies. So you trying to argue it's influence by Hatti. I'm trying to tell you N.O already had a commonality with Hatti because they was govern by same European countries that force similar tolerances of the slaves culture and practices.
Also I don't care if it's direct African influence or came from Caribbean, because Caribbean would only transporting African influence. That was never my point. Cultures have been practice in Africa for hundreds to thousands of years Brought to the Caribbean for 50 to 100 then suddenly. We suppose given more credit to Hatti on Voodoo then West Africa come on now.
But my issue with you is you calling African American culture African Caribbean Culture to try to distant it from "African American culture". Which makes no literal sense.
Anything that happen in America by Blacks especially 200 plus years ago is by default African American. Not specifically just what was brought to the English colonies.
Then my point about New Orleans is it's influence later on. Regardless of how the African influence were brought there. New Orleans as largest city in South it cultural influences the rest of African Americans even Americans at large. Even if some family was enslave in North Carolina. Lets same they move to Harlem guess what was popular in Harlem? New Orleans music.
The number of slaves isn't a relevant as percentage of slaves in a society is. If community had a high percentage of slaves it was able to retain more African influence.
Also
My point was never America has as much African influence as Caribbean. That your argument with yourself.
The point why I started debating with you, is you just trying to discredit anything African influence in America simply because you just don't want it be.
The point I was making African Americans took African influences fuse it with other cultures until evolved into Something New, This why Jazz happen in America but Samba happen in Brazil. It's oblivious Samba is African influence but Jazz you have understand the evolution.
Couldn't PROP enough. I think living in a White dominant society that pretty much demonized and dehumanize anything African related has confused people including African Americans on what our culture truly is and how it took shape. Like some people truly think we don't have any culture and I'm not just talking Non-Blacks or Immigrants no including ourselves.
Like caribny separating Gullah-Geechee from mainland African American culture as a Afro Caribbean culture.
Like dude around the time of the slave trade there wasn't this "Caribbean" culture that we know of as today. The Caribbean's were European colonies. Just like the 13 colonies of the British and other parts of what we know now today as the United States being occupied by Europeans.
African Americans, Afro South Americans, Afro Latinos, Caribbean's were all descendants of the Trans Atlantic Slave trade. There was trade back and forth between colonies all the while why these West and Central Africans were forming different variations of a creolization of West-Central African cultures mixed with whatever oppressor held them captive during that time period.
Like you stated the commonalities are there because we come from the same region of Africa through similar experience of being enslaved.
Matter fact I was having an argument with someone on another thread a couple of months ago when it came to the evolution of African American Vernacular English. I have a theory that the Gullah-Geechee dialect is probably the earliest form of AAVE. When our ancestors were first learning the English language that's just how they sound. Which shares some similarities with other West-Central Africans that were shipped to ENGLISH colonies. Now of course Gullah-Geechee dialect remained more intact due to isolation just like these former English colonies that later became these predominately Black Caribbean countries we know today.
But I was listening to this video entitled " The Surviving Records of the Slave Narratives". These were recordings done in the 1920s-1930s of ex slaves. So these were elders at that time. And me personally when I hear their dialect it sounds more similar to Gullah-Geechee than what AAAVE evolved into now depending on region. Mind you my Grandparents were born in the 20's and early 30's. So these ex-slaves would be my Grandparents Grandparents or even Parents. I believe my Dad's Dad mother was a baby towards the last days of slavery.
What I found interesting was that no matter what part of the country these ex enslaved Africans resided in they all had a similar dialect that share some similarities with what we associate as Gullah-Geechee.
I think around the era of my Grandparents during the Great migration era is when you start to see more variations of AAVE and the diluted Gullah-Geechee dialect on the mainland. AA's started assimilating more into white societies and cities unlike before where 90% lived in the South with the vast majority confined to plantations in the south.
This video also reminds me just how little we know of our African influences here in America even when we see it everyday in plain sight. Some regions are stronger than others.
No dude.... At this point you literally calling things in America "Afro Caribbean" because your refusing to accept that America and Caribbean have some commonality in influences.
There a thing call West African pidgin English......... West African pidgin English influence and spread with the African diaspora. Otherwise Gullah is American but belongs same language family as Afro Caribbean deflects as in relation to West African pidgin English.
Again you have this view of separation between Caribbean and mainland north American slave ports, When I'm telling you it didn't exist. Even on East coast 10% of slaves came from Caribbean. So what now since the lines are blurr is All of American American culture "Afro Caribbean" Then your trying to define what is America culture before America or Caribbean for that matter could much cultural define themselves.
The English Colonies on the main land trade with English colonies in Caribbean.
The French and Spanish colonies on the on main land trade with English colonies in Caribbean.
"Please explain"
General African American accent is little different because decreolization. As slaves came to places like low country they oblivious spoke African language but as they was taken away from the coast over time a decreolization happen. The Caribbean are Islands that create isolation and yes I know Indian etc went to Caribbean but far more immigrants of way larger scale went to the US. Million of immigrants that make 100s of million people. The reason Gullah is still in the low country in Georgia and South Carolina is because they were more isolated so they was able retain a stronger creole later. But it's the low country this literally where most slaves, over 40% came in.
Whether you consider a "important port" or not doesn't change. Slaves were brought there under Spanish and French rules. Congo Square for example existed before the Haitian revolution. The point the culture was diffrent from the English colonies, otherwise N.O was already in tune with French and Spanish colonies. So you trying to argue it's influence by Hatti. I'm trying to tell you N.O already had a commonality with Hatti because they was govern by same European countries that force similar tolerances of the slaves culture and practices.
Also I don't care if it's direct African influence or came from Caribbean, because Caribbean would only transporting African influence. That was never my point. Cultures have been practice in Africa for hundreds to thousands of years Brought to the Caribbean for 50 to 100 then suddenly. We suppose given more credit to Hatti on Voodoo then West Africa come on now.
But my issue with you is you calling African American culture African Caribbean Culture to try to distant it from "African American culture". Which makes no literal sense.
Anything that happen in America by Blacks especially 200 plus years ago is by default African American. Not specifically just what was brought to the English colonies.
Then my point about New Orleans is it's influence later on. Regardless of how the African influence were brought there. New Orleans as largest city in South it cultural influences the rest of African Americans even Americans at large. Even if some family was enslave in North Carolina. Lets same they move to Harlem guess what was popular in Harlem? New Orleans music.
The number of slaves isn't a relevant as percentage of slaves in a society is. If community had a high percentage of slaves it was able to retain more African influence.
Also
My point was never America has as much African influence as Caribbean. That your argument with yourself.
The point why I started debating with you, is you just trying to discredit anything African influence in America simply because you just don't want it be.
The point I was making African Americans took African influences fuse it with other cultures until evolved into Something New, This why Jazz happen in America but Samba happen in Brazil. It's oblivious Samba is African influence but Jazz you have understand the evolution.
So now I am accused of calling the cultures of DMV and the Mississippi Delta "Afro Caribbean". Because these regions are very important in the myriad varieties of cultures which exist among black Americans. I do not think that these cultures manifest intersectionalities with other diasporic cultures in the ways that the Gullah and New Orleans do.
As a French/Spanish colony NO was very tied to the Caribbean colonies of those nations, which is why after the Haitian Revolution many Haitians settled there. And when they did so they added to the cultural mix which is New Orleans. The result being that New Orleans manifests connectivity to the Caribbean that the Mississippi Delta does not. The black culture of the Mississippi Delta did NOT emerge from newly arrived African enslaved peoples, but from peoples impacted by American slavery for over several generations, so developing a culture which reflected this.
What you need to understand is that the evolution of the cultures of these various Afro Diasporic groups were impacted by the specific mix of the peoples who arrived and the conditions that they existed under. So Barbados (95% Afro arrived) is LESS "African" than what one will find in Cuba and Brazil where the "Afro" populations were a smaller % of the populations, but where conditions existed which were more conducive to higher African cultural retentions.
Your problem is that you insist that Gullah is some deeply African influenced language.
This is what an "African" English Creole sounds like. Srnan Tongo (which means Suriname Talk) of Suriname. This is what almost everyone in Suriname speaks so someone of Indian or Javanese origins speaks this very Africanized creole.
It arrived in Suriname in the mid 17th century when speakers of West African Portuguese Pidgin were switching to West African English Pidgin as the UK began to replace Portugal as a major trading partner in the Bight of Biafra. It then became isolated from standard English as Suriname became a Dutch colony, and, until recently, almost completely isolated from the English speaking world. So it became "re Africanized". Other English creoles evolved with some relationship to standard English due to the dominance of that latter form in education, business and government. In Suriname Dutch plays that role, which left Srnan to become more distant from English. Most people hearing Srnan would want to know why is it referred to as an English creole.
Srnan Tongo can be considered "pre creole" as it is closest to the West African English pidgins and isolated from standard English so its lexicon is unintelligible even to other English creole speakers. Jamaican and Guyanese dialects can be considered creole whereas Bajan/Bahamian and Gullah are almost post creole as standard English is less distant. Most will agree that Jamaican patwa is more distant from standard Englsh than is Gullah, or for that matter the creoles of Barbados or the Bahamas.
Your rant is that you are angry that what you consider to be the most "African" aspect of black American culture I position within an Afro Caribbean space. Gullah falls within the Afro Caribbean creole English space if we view Srnan Tongo as the most distinct from standard English, the creoles of Jamaica/Guyana intermediate and Barbados/Bahamas/Gullah being more closely to standard English but having sufficient features to be considered a creole, as distinct from vernacular English.
I am glad that you compared Jazz to Samba. It in fact shows the reasons why black Brazilian and black American culture evolved differently. Over 40% of the enslaved Africans taken to Brazil arrived after 1800 and they have disproportionate impact on todays black Brazilians as most enslaved peoples taken to that country died within 7 years and didnt reproduce.
On the other hand 75% of enslaved peoples taken to the USA arrived when it was still 13 British colonies, so the 80%+ of blacks in the USA who descend purely from American slavery are descended from the off spring of these peoples, so have a more distant connection to Africa. They are less likely to have been raised by peoples born in Africa (parents/grandparents) than those in Brazil and the Caribbean, so the culture which evolved as an almost purely domestic one not impacted by fresh arrivals of new enslaved Africans.
So this is why we have jazz which has only implied African influences, and samba which is very African in scope, even though it is not the most African of Brazil's musical genres.
This argument began with your implication that Gullah had direct roots in Africa. It did NOT as we can see with very clear connections to Barbados. The more "African" Jamaica patwa is very distinct from both Gullah and Bajan creole, which shows that it evolved along a different path. Interestingly enough the creoles of Guyana and Jamaica are closer to the urban varieties of Krio and Nigerian Pidgin than is Gullah or Bajan.
Couldn't PROP enough. I think living in a White dominant society that pretty much demonized and dehumanize anything African related has confused people including African Americans on what our culture truly is and how it took shape. Like some people truly think we don't have any culture and I'm not just talking Non-Blacks or Immigrants no including ourselves.
Like caribny separating Gullah-Geechee from mainland African American culture as a Afro Caribbean culture.
Like dude around the time of the slave trade there wasn't this "Caribbean" culture that we know of as today. The Caribbean's were European colonies. Just like the 13 colonies of the British and other parts of what we know now today as the United States being occupied by Europeans.
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EVERY single black culture in the Americas was subjected to demonizing and stigmatizing. The methods might have been more cruel in the USA than elsewhere but we all know what "good hair" is and, until recently, we all aspired to mate with people with lighter skins and none of us wanted to be connected to Africa, seeing it as savage and primitive and embarrassing. This is what slavery/colonization did and all of the white colonizers sought to wipe it out. Do you know that drums were banned in British colonies and those engaged in Afro derived religions endured savage whipping? Even in Brazil the popular capoeira was banned. In Brazil there was the "walking while drumming" police abuse akin to the "walking while black" abuse that we see today in the USA, Cuba, and Brazil.
In the British Caribbean colonies education was provided via the Christian churches (especially the Anglican, Catholic and Methodist). Upward mobility was tied to receiving this education, and you know that "black pride and African culture" was NOT on the curriculum. A very effective tool of disseminating self hatred.
Black American culture is less African, not because it was more denigrated than elsewhere. In fact the higher levels of racial segregation offered more "safe spaces" than say Cuba where this was less present. It was the nature of how slavery evolved. The USA is the ONLY ex slave society in the Americas where the numbers of slaves at the end of its period considerably exceeded the numbers brought in. The vast majority of enslaved peoples living in the USA had NO CONTACT with any African born person, unlike the Caribbean and Brazil where large % of these people existed within the enslaved populations.
I actually know of the last person who arrived in Guyana from Africa in 1823. That person was definitely able to pass down some of her culture after slavery ended in 1834 as she was still a relatively young woman. And in fact a great great aunt of mine knew her and I knew this woman. She was from southeast Nigeria/SW Cameroon area.
The Caribbean culture began to develop the minute that the first African was taken there and encountered Europeans. It developed in a different direction than that of the USA. The slaves in both the USA and the Caribbean began to develop cultures, in response to, or despite that systems of slavery. In certain places (New Orleans and the Gullah) there was contact between these two groups. In most other places there wasnt and so the cultures of the enslaved peoples of the USA and the Caribbean proceeded along different paths. To claim that slaves didnt have a culture, or that the culture that they developed hasnt impacted those of blacks living throughout the Afro Diaspora is inaccurate, and I would argue quite disrespectful.
The difference were due to;
1. Enslaved peoples were 90% of the population vs. a much lower % in most slave societies in the USA.
2. The Caribbean slave planters were richer than those in the USA so could have afforded to buy "fresh" slaves. In addition feeding slaves in the Caribbean was more expensive than in the USA as the slave owners preferred to focus on sugar and feeding the slaves minimally from imported food. The result is that 1 million enslaved peoples arrived in Jamaica, with about 75% remaining on island, vs. 450k arriving in the USA, even when we include slaves who arrived via ports in the Caribbean. It is possible that 38 million people live in the USA derived purely from American slavery. This compares with no more than 5 million Jamaicans (including the descendants of those who have migrated).
3. It was cheaper to "grow" slaves on US plantation as food was cheaper but importing slaves more expensive due to the greater distances from the source regions in Africa. There were also far fewer slave voyages to North America than to a small island like Barbados.
4. The result is that slaves in the Caribbean were less able to reproduce than in the USA and so there was a constant need to bring in new enslaved peoples from Africa. In the USA the growth of the slave populations came from reproduction, the result being fewer new arrivals from Africa, and as a result a more rapid decline in direct African cultural influences. Blacks in the USA therefore developed a culture which was much more influenced by their environments and less so by the infusion of new African enslaved peoples.
5. Cuba and Brazil have high African retentions, even though blacks are a minority, because these were the last enslaved people to be brought in and when they were freed there were sizeable numbers of African born among them. In fact a few even returned to their ancestral lands in Africa.
Comparing blacks in the USA and Brazil is interesting. Both have approximate 40 million people with predominant African ancestry. Yet Brazil is so much more "African" and in fact some might argue that a white Brazilian from Rio or Salvador is more "African" than a black person from ATL. Not because they want to be, but because this is the essence of being Brazilian.
So now I am accused of calling the cultures of DMV and the Mississippi Delta "Afro Caribbean". Because these regions are very important in the myriad varieties of cultures which exist among black Americans. I do not think that these cultures manifest intersectionalities with other diasporic cultures in the ways that the Gullah and New Orleans do. "
First off let me say this because this been bugging for awhile............ "DMV" stand for DC, Maryland, Virginia specifically It mean DC metropolitan area. because DC Metro area makes a small part of both states. While DC is historic black city it's time line is more modern DC didn't become a majority Black city until 1957, And then the metropolitan was a lot smaller back then basically the concept of "DMV" is even more recent that. in 1920, 1850, 1800, and 1750 no was saying DMV. I don't believe modern organization of MSA was even define until the 1940's. And then most slaves that came into VA did go to even what became the DMV. but rather the "tide water region" The piedmont" So really throwing for a loop saying "DMV" then comparing to areas in the Deep south in the black belt region.
And your clear not listening
Nearly half of All Slaves came though the lowcountry "Charleston - Savanah" , it's estimated up 80% of African American can trance an ancestor that came though Charleston alone. That's higher what White American trace back to Ellis Island to give an ideal.
Quote:
As a French/Spanish colony NO was very tied to the Caribbean colonies of those nations, which is why after the Haitian Revolution many Haitians settled there. And when they did so they added to the cultural mix which is New Orleans. The result being that New Orleans manifests connectivity to the Caribbean that the Mississippi Delta does not. The black culture of the Mississippi Delta did NOT emerge from newly arrived African enslaved peoples, but from peoples impacted by American slavery for over several generations, so developing a culture which reflected this.
Notice the way you phrase it makes my point. "As a French/Spanish colony NO was very tied to the Caribbean colonies of those nations" because by that same logic that means Caribbean was tied to north American mainland. So it's like calling Caribbean "American culture" that basically what your going in reverse.
It's because there African Diasporic parallels between US and the Caribbean at a similar time. Rather viewing it as cultural ties or exchanges between these places as culture of African diaspora. Your call the ties themselves "Caribbean".... rather "African diasporic"
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Already mention before now where going in circles.
New Orleans was largest the city in the South for a century. The South especially the deep South was and still is home to the majority of Blacks. Basically for a century whether someone was white or black you was influence by New Orleans in the South. Your going Delta was there and New Orleans was there for......they had no connection!......... yes they did. Slaves were sold back and forth, Blacks moved back and forth freely. Black musicians, artist, dancers etc travel. then later media news papers, phone line, radio etc.
Harlem know for Jazz, the 1920s in general in America was know as Jazz age, Jazz start in NO, but you can't understand how NO influence the rest of Black America culturally. Even some was slave in Mississippi Delta who was dis connected from NO, there decedents 50 years later would been influence by NO "later"
Quote:
What you need to understand is that the evolution of the cultures of these various Afro Diasporic groups were impacted by the specific mix of the peoples who arrived and the conditions that they existed under. So Barbados (95% Afro arrived) is LESS "African" than what one will find in Cuba and Brazil where the "Afro" populations were a smaller % of the populations, but where conditions existed which were more conducive to higher African cultural retentions.
What you don't understand US and Caribbean didn't exist isolation.
The issue any cross influence between the US mainland and Caribbean your calling it "Caribbean" when really be sum as "African diasporic"
What happen you made this mental hard line between the US and Caribbean. That if Haiti, Dominican Republic, Cuba influence each other they still themselves still Haiti, Dominican Republic, and Cuba. but add Louisiana in US to mix then suddenly it's not America it's Caribbean. That's not how it works.
Quote:
Your problem is that you insist that Gullah is some deeply African influenced language.
This is what an "African" English Creole sounds like. Srnan Tongo (which means Suriname Talk) of Suriname. This is what almost everyone in Suriname speaks so someone of Indian or Javanese origins speaks this very Africanized creole.
arrived in Suriname in the mid 17th century when speakers of West African Portuguese Pidgin were switching to West African English Pidgin as the UK began to replace Portugal as a major trading partner in the Bight of Biafra. It then became isolated from standard English as Suriname became a Dutch colony, and, until recently, almost completely isolated from the English speaking world. So it became "re Africanized". Other English creoles evolved with some relationship to standard English due to the dominance of that latter form in education, business and government. In Suriname Dutch plays that role, which left Srnan to become more distant from English. Most people hearing Srnan would want to know why is it referred to as an English creole.
Srnan Tongo can be considered "pre creole" as it is closest to the West African English pidgins and isolated from standard English so its lexicon is unintelligible even to other English creole speakers. Jamaican and Guyanese dialects can be considered creole whereas Bajan/Bahamian and Gullah are almost post creole as standard English is less distant. Most will agree that Jamaican patwa is more distant from standard Englsh than is Gullah, or for that matter the creoles of Barbados or the Bahamas.
Your rant is that you are angry that what you consider to be the most "African" aspect of black American culture I position within an Afro Caribbean space. Gullah falls within the Afro Caribbean creole English space if we view Srnan Tongo as the most distinct from standard English, the creoles of Jamaica/Guyana intermediate and Barbados/Bahamas/Gullah being more closely to standard English but having sufficient features to be considered a creole, as distinct from vernacular English.
I don't know if your ignoring what I'm say or what, but angry? I think it getting hilarious because you don't know you taking about "DMV"
but No,
I See Gullah as an American parallel of the creoles that happen across the African diasporic.
Your argument is that I don't see connection it has with the Caribbean "Even though I'm overtly the one that told you" What I'm telling you is that connection and ties isn't called "Caribbean" it's just two different places in the African diaspora that have connection in North America. Similar situation and exchanges that happen in Caribbean had happen in a few places in the US. The Caribbean didn't just influences The US, The US influence Caribbean vica versa because English, Spanish, and French colonies generally exchange especially in these areas it wasn't one way.
So your going basically Gullah is influence by Bajan/Bahamian creole there for it's "Caribbean".
I'm saying no
They likely influenced each other, And they part of large network of creoles that happen between the African diaspora and Africa.
Example you said
I position within an Afro Caribbean space. Gullah falls within the Afro Caribbean creole English space
this literally make no sense, it happening because your calling any "African diasporic" connection with the Caribbean as Caribbean. And view it one way thing when it's not.
South America and Caribbean where the larger black sphere in African diaspora. So most of cultural exchanges happen in African diaspora happen in those place. But place like Louisiana and Low Country were connected. So your saying "Afro Caribbean space" when you should saying African diasporic space.
Quote:
I am glad that you compared Jazz to Samba. It in fact shows the reasons why black Brazilian and black American culture evolved differently. Over 40% of the enslaved Africans taken to Brazil arrived after 1800 and they have disproportionate impact on todays black Brazilians as most enslaved peoples taken to that country died within 7 years and didnt reproduce.
On the other hand 75% of enslaved peoples taken to the USA arrived when it was still 13 British colonies, so the 80%+ of blacks in the USA who descend purely from American slavery are descended from the off spring of these peoples, so have a more distant connection to Africa. They are less likely to have been raised by peoples born in Africa (parents/grandparents) than those in Brazil and the Caribbean, so the culture which evolved as an almost purely domestic one not impacted by fresh arrivals of new enslaved Africans.
So this is why we have jazz which has only implied African influences, and samba which is very African in scope, even though it is not the most African of Brazil's musical genres.
This argument began with your implication that Gullah had direct roots in Africa. It did NOT as we can see with very clear connections to Barbados. The more "African" Jamaica patwa is very distinct from both Gullah and Bajan creole, which shows that it evolved along a different path. Interestingly enough the creoles of Guyana and Jamaica are closer to the urban varieties of Krio and Nigerian Pidgin than is Gullah or Bajan.
To bold no and no
1. That's not how the argument started, 2. That statement itself incorrect
Again you view it as if there this one way influence that Barbados influence the low country "USA" there for Gullah is like Bajan creole, and we call it "Caribbean".......... When actually As British colonies they was connected and influenced each other. and both Also was influence by Africa as well.
The argument started with you trying to call "American" history and culture "Caribbean". My argument was never the US and Caribbean don't have connection but that isn't one way and isn't called "Caribbean" but yes there direct African influence in those places too it isn't other.
One thing I notice your not using the phrase "low Country" as if separating Gullah from region its in. The reason why this is weird because as mention above most Slaves came in though the port of Savanah and Charleston. Your argument was NO wasn't a major slave port well OK Charleston in Gullah region was literally the biggest. and while some came from Caribbean most did Come from Africa here.
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