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The earth is a living thing. Nothing is more evident in our world.
I'm just interested in this idea. I do not agree with you but won't argue with you either because the internet is not a good place to debate something like this. What I'm interested in is if you are part of a group of people that believe this and what they might be called. Is it something organized or just something you personally believe without sharing that with anyone else.
Probably not something to get into here, but it's interesting to me. Don't get me wrong, it's not something I'm interested in exploring personally, but I'm interested in knowing why someone would come to that conclusion.
I'm just interested in this idea. I do not agree with you but won't argue with you either because the internet is not a good place to debate something like this. What I'm interested in is if you are part of a group of people that believe this and what they might be called. Is it something organized or just something you personally believe without sharing that with anyone else.
Probably not something to get into here, but it's interesting to me. Don't get me wrong, it's not something I'm interested in exploring personally, but I'm interested in knowing why someone would come to that conclusion.
That's right COULD, as in maybe, might, we don't know. If it were known for certain then your precious Obama wouldn't have issued Shell the permits now would he?
Once again, you are simply posting hysterical accusations based on hyperbole obtained from the internets, rather than based on actual fact or real life experience like the rest of us.
My precious Obama? I didn't vote for Obama, and I'm not a fan of his policies. I don't know where you got that idea. As far as my "hysterical accusations", they are, in fact, opinions. We all have them, and we all voice them, but for some reason I'm often the one getting yelled at and "caps lock bold" text thrown at me. I'm entitled to an opinion as much as you are. I am not the bad guy here, I promise. I just happen to disagree with you, that's all.
And I agree with you, we don't yet know whether or not it will hurt the bowhead migration patterns, so rather than "drill baby drill", how about we do a little test baby testing before we just start sticking drills in the bottom of the ocean. Surely there are ways to test whether it will hurt the whale patterns without putting the rigs in first. Modern science is impressive. One thing to consider is that whales rely heavily on sound, and oil rigs are rather noisy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticState
Alaska Native Corporations are very influential in all matters, state and federal, in Alaska. Oil companies ignore them at great peril. Now that's not to say they run the show, but NANA does not just show up to say a few words at some meeting, believe me. Wealthy ANCs benefit from no-bid federal contracts (thanks Uncle Ted), using (and sometimes abusing) their special preferences at every level.
We're not talking about small companies/humble natives trying to find their way and grow in order to help the native populations.
Also, oil companies don't get to "make the decision to drill or not to drill", they only get to make the decision to pursue it through the Gordian knot of federal, state, private and ANC interests--in a highly competitive and incredibly regulated environment.
Maybe the egregious past history influences our view of the "noble Eskimo" who simply wants to hunt whales in peace like his ancestors. The real truth is much more complex.
I haven't been able to rep you for quite awhile, but thank you for the nice, civil, informative post. I learned from that post. Funny that you specifically mentioned NANA; I've been reading a lot about them lately from their website and other media. That's a fascinating region.
As far as the Native Corporations, I understand (at least to some degree) that they hold tremendous influence. Still, in the video that started this thread, you could see the indignation in the faces of the people they interviewed, in particular the lady who emphatically said, "That's our garden, the sea. Don't mess with our garden!" I understand their concerns. Their way of life, the locations of their villages, everything is based on hunting and subsistence, especially bowhead whales. So if you damage the bowhead migration patterns to where they don't come near Point Hope anymore because of the rigs, you severely damage the culture of the natives of Point Hope.
I don't mean to be some know-it-all from far away. These are issues that, believe it or not, matter to people who don't yet live in Alaska. I have spent a good deal of my free time lately reading and studying Alaska natives, especially the Yup'ik of Southwest Alaska, but I have done some reading on the Inupiaq as well. My knowledge of them is much more limited, and they are a much more complicated study in a way too, because they are involved with all the oil money with the Native Corporations and all. Like, ASNC is friggin huge, having appeared on the list of the Top 100 US Federal Contractors in '08 and '09, the same list that includes companies like Lockheed Martin and Boeing. So it's hard to fully grasp this stuff because of enormous scope of it. But what I'm kinda trying to say is that even though I'm not there and have never met any of these people, I care deeply about the preservation of their culture, because it's a very rich one.
I'm not Mr. "I'm gonna save the world" guy. I just get kinda pissed off when people don't take the time to consider what kind of damage they might be doing when they start with their oil "exploration". There are two sides to every story, and it's hard with something like this to balance the need for resources with the need to respect the people who were there first. If we're following non-Western standards here, then that land is rightfully their land, because it has always been their land.
Last edited by ShipOfFools42; 10-26-2011 at 10:31 PM..
The Thumping of the ocean floor by Shell did add a lot of confusion for the whales when they were migrating.
How could I possibly know this ?? Well aside from Google there is a real world out there. Earl Kinguk was head of fish & game in Point Hope at that time when they were thumping the ocean floor. He was out there on that vessel with other important people from the whaling commmission and whaling assocation. They could easly see the whales using a big scope Earl was explaining; Whales passing through this area, could be seen swimming in a straight line, headed north. But when they thumped the ocean floor, any and all whales in that area, did not know which way to go, they looked erratic and confused as to which direction to follow. When the noise subsided; they were able to get their berings in the sea (pun intended). Scientists believe they follow a type of magnetic signal or path.. Thumping the ocean floor is not going to fly with the Natives during whaling. Drilling or making noise either is completely out of the question as it will cause the whales to avoid this area.
Whales can sing, in Seven Octaves, think about that for more than 5 seconds.
That requires great control & intelligence !
I shure hope; this need to drill here in this area isn't the beginning of the end to thousands of years of traditions and lifestyle.
The sadest part of all of this is we have a way to generate all the energy we want from the ocean. clean fussion power but congress elected to abandon that idea in the 1990's.
It was greed that decimated 320,000 coastal natives down to 1,200 because of the need for oil in the 1880's and such.. I guess they won't be satisfied until they get their way and end this age old lifestyle. It saddens me deeply.
I'm just interested in this idea. I do not agree with you but won't argue with you either because the internet is not a good place to debate something like this. What I'm interested in is if you are part of a group of people that believe this and what they might be called. Is it something organized or just something you personally believe without sharing that with anyone else.
Probably not something to get into here, but it's interesting to me. Don't get me wrong, it's not something I'm interested in exploring personally, but I'm interested in knowing why someone would come to that conclusion.
Well I can answer that question very easily but probably not in the same manner.
Everything is a living 'thing' yup... I believe that; only because of what I have read. All of creation groans. The trees cry out. The earth cries, & The heavens declare the Glory.
I'm not trying to incite a riot - but with an open mind, just read Psalm 148 and you will see the evidence of a living earth that was created. Its very short - direct and to this point in the topic. The best explanation I can possibly give using extremely simple sentences.
Here is the thing. Oil is not worth the extraction cost to the earth. For those of you that do not know, the earth is a sentient entity. It responds to our attempts to change it. After two millenia the earth is saying stop; and unfortunately the "we" who own the wells are not listening. Oil is finite and as new sources are discovered the ante is going up. One earthquake, one wave destroys the Japanese infrastructure and health of it's people, not for a few years...but for decades and decades. Radiation levels around Tokyo at unsafe levels (also reported in the NY Times) and an economy in chaos. Nature not only bats last she does not care who she hurts. I don't disagree that we want oil and the millions of products that come from it...I do posit that we cannot treat the earth like a bank account....and there is more to the "thing".
The Arctic is alive with wonder and sounds. Loving and caring the remote nature of it sings to us and the call is heard around the globe. Silenced by concrete, ushered out by IPOD/PAD/Smart/Phones the song remains the same just not as available. In 200 years oil will have disappeared and tribal farms north and south will be the norm. I think that is a good thing at least the earth may yield if we start now. If not, and if we persist to think that we can take whatever, whenever and however we want the earth will respond.
When the makers of Godzilla were approached with the idea of a mega earthquake producing a mega tsunami and throwing radioactivity throughout the country of Japan it was rejected as "too unrealistic".
Whimsical? not in the least. Nature at bat and she is throwing hardballs. We ignore this at our own peril. ONE hefty meteor can really ruin your day....Talk about low probability and high impact.
Listen to the song of the earth and take stock. It is time IMHO.
*Sigh* There isn't much in our life that oil doesn't affect, it is the Plastics we use, it powers our cars, it powers our homes and there are thousands of places where it touches us.
I get tired of the people that think buying an electric car is the fix the worlds energy problems... it creates even more... To make the batteries, that creates a lot of toxic chemicals as well as when they need to be disposed of. To Charge an electric car, most people don't see beyond the plug outlet on the wall... Behind that is a power grid, with coal, nuclear, gas and a fraction of Hydro, wind and solar power production to make this car run.
I bought a 2011 Ford Focus, not because I couldn't afford to spend another twenty thousand dollars for a "Echo Friendly" electric car, they are a waste of money and resources. The Focus gets up to 40 MPG (if I keep my foot out of it) and is rated only a couple of MPG less than the "Green" cars with the gas/electric drives systems and on the highway, the gas engine runs all the time. The all electric ones get terrible mileage (about a 100 miles), if you turn on the radio or (God forbid), the AC or electric heater... you have to be plugged into the power grid even sooner to charge back up again, which if course is more than likely either a Coal, gas or Nuke plant providing the burning resources to make it work.
It is very noble to want "Green" for the planet, but common sense has to be applied as well which is very sadly lacking. Most of this "Echo" stuff is basically a sales tool that most people buy willingly without any thought to the end product. Solar panels require a lot of toxic chemicals to produce, don't product that much power for the cost and as they get older, break down.
The planet doesn't have feelings, it is a rock in space that has what amounts to a mold covering it that we are a part of. It will at some point be consumed into the sun either by gravity or a nova.
The earth is in fact our "Bank", if your religious, God created it for us, if not, then it is all we have and we need to be responsible about it's use, but until the next source of power it invented, oil, gas and Coal are pretty much the staple of our lifestyle. Our world wide Population is approaching seven Billion people, we will do what nature does all the time, it kills off it's overcrowded areas either by starvation or disaster... 'Course in our case it may be in a series of bright flashes and mushroom clouds...
As far as the villages on the Alaskan landscape in the Arctic, they never had more than a few hundred living at any one spot, in most cases a couple of dozen. When they lived off the land, it could only provide so much. If times were hard, the elderly, women and female babies were left behind to die, it was the men that were the "Hunter/Gathers" that kept the rest alive when they went to search for a new place to live for more food. That sounds cruel, but it is how they survived. Not pretty or romantic, but it worked.
When the white man showed up (Russians first) with resources to sustain larger populations, they then were able to make larger towns and such to stay in one place, the oil in Alaska has really improved their standard of living. Once is it gone, they will again be at the mercy of the elements which wasn't that easy of a lifestyle to start with. There won't be anyone to bail them out either because once the oil is gone, all of us will be affected negatively.
The Thumping of the ocean floor by Shell did add a lot of confusion for the whales when they were migrating.
How could I possibly know this ?? Well aside from Google there is a real world out there. Earl Kinguk was head of fish & game in Point Hope at that time when they were thumping the ocean floor. He was out there on that vessel with other important people from the whaling commmission and whaling assocation. They could easly see the whales using a big scope Earl was explaining; Whales passing through this area, could be seen swimming in a straight line, headed north. But when they thumped the ocean floor, any and all whales in that area, did not know which way to go, they looked erratic and confused as to which direction to follow. When the noise subsided; they were able to get their berings in the sea (pun intended). Scientists believe they follow a type of magnetic signal or path.. Thumping the ocean floor is not going to fly with the Natives during whaling. Drilling or making noise either is completely out of the question as it will cause the whales to avoid this area.
Whales can sing, in Seven Octaves, think about that for more than 5 seconds.
That requires great control & intelligence ! Floyd liked to compare a whale to a cow as each being equally as dumb. A cow can utter one monotone sound MOO.. it can't find its way into a barn unless someone leads it.
I shure hope; this need to drill here in this area isn't the beginning of the end to thousands of years of traditions and lifestyle.
The sadest part of all of this is we have a way to generate all the energy we want from the ocean. clean fussion power but congress elected to abandon that idea in the 1990's.
It was greed that decimated 320,000 coastal natives down to 1,200 because of the need for oil in the 1880's and such.. I guess they won't be satisfied until they get their way and end this age old lifestyle. It saddens me deeply.
While I'm not totally sure on a couple of your facts, for once (HOLY CRAP) we agree on something. Imagine that. I don't want to see this culture be destroyed because as everyone knows, whales use sonar, and the drilling rigs would almost CERTAINLY disrupt their migration, and possibly affect far more than just the village of Point Hope.
That article explains how Navy sonar activities caused whales to be stranded and confused.
And about the roads... I made a mistake. My bad. I didn't mean to type "paved roads", I was just saying that they have roads (not paved) in North Slope villages because of the oil money basically. In other tundra villages (like in Southwest Alaska), there are boardwalks rather than roads, because they don't have all that oil money with which to build roads to drive their ATVs on. And yet even without roads, they get around fine. That was the point I was trying to make.
Well Ship; I don't get my facts from books that white people wrote.
Puiwiiquat (spelling is wrong) but it is a book published by the NSB it is the only book; complied by all the elders in all the villages in the late 70's with assistance by the Oil companies. It was a very clever way to find out what the natives knew and for how long and what claims the oil companies could use to strip these people of everything.
320,000 people is also the figure quoted by the elders in Barrow in the movie by Uncivilized films on the history of the Inupiaq.
Point Hope is small now. due to the massive erosion, but Jabber town is huge which is where tens of thousands used to live & hunt. 2,500 years ago is when the Inupiaq settled in Point Hope from upper mongolia across the land bridge. The one reason they settled in Point Hope was the abundance of food in this area. Over 10,000 people in Point Hope were reduced to just 190.
Jabber town was much worse. If you want truly fascinating reading; write to the borough and request a copy of that book. If they say they don't have any say to them.. Yes you do. IN the city of Barrow's small store. I know for a fact there are 3 copies in that store (which is never used since we left). They are maroon in color. The original copies I had in 81 were dark blue but same book. Its pretty thick. You will get to know lots more .. than what you are ever going to find in other books. Much more.
Especially fascinating were "the spirits that come around the bend" ! Stephen King could take a few lessons from this book!!
The nicest thing about truth is that it does not depend upon our viewpoints. You may want to walk around the "rock" awhile and listen to these cultures. As long as "we" pursue the blind manifest destiny that the earth "is our bank" we do so at our own peril. I can see that you (and millions) of others do not believe that. So be it. It does not change the truth no more than it changes other immutable laws of nature. They are unchangeable and real things.
I really have to chuckle (though a dark laugh) that people think this way in spite of
e v e r y living thing which contradicts it.
Whales can sing in octaves. Like Sity said you may want to think about that. It illuminates that creation (though he and I may differ on the source) is a song, a song of the earth. We could not say we "own" the earth. That would be impossible, And our arrogance in thinking it reveals how terribly vulnerable we truly are here.
We only really change things when the **** is about to go down. In 1990 I was doing market research for a company which produced pumps. From cars to homes to big factories. And they had to change their configs as federal law had mandated CFC refrigerants. Companies created those and new pumps were designed in weeks. I learned that the ingenuity of our species to protect the earth is impressive. Now, a similar threat emerges and yet we pursue drilling for oil rife with potential problems.
The question is not (as many try to chat about) if we need oil for our products, the question is can we find alternatives so that we can stop using oil. People get into this question andsay well look at how we (and I) are dependent. No question it is fact that most products use oil in their production. Again as in my post I suggested in 200 years it will not matter. Oil will be gone........
Tribal villages will emerge, communications will be more difficult and the wealthy will hoard treasure and power. That is already happening. "Arab Spring" is no more than people not having access to goods. Remember in Tunisia this all started with a food vendor.
And the thing is is that we can enjoy the beauty and bounty (within reason) of this LIVING organism we call earth. It's time.
Wake up my slumbering friends. The earth is not a dead rock. It is a living breathing vibrant entity which radiates light into the darkness of space....
Last edited by AADAD; 10-27-2011 at 05:32 AM..
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