Why won't people open their minds? (surgery, research)

[nightlysparrow]

Originally Posted by RogersParkGuy

I know a woman who was diagnosed with stage 1 breast cancer. Small mass, no metastasis. Had she undergone a mastectomy, her prognosis would have been excellent. But she was deeply committed to "natural" therapies. She relied on them for two years, refusing all conventional treatments. Finally, even her favorite "natural healer" recommended she visit an oncologist. She did. She is now at stage 4 and her prognosis is grim. She has two small children.

Same thing with Steve Jobs, according to reports. Could have treated his cancer conventionally, but didn't, then later he no longer had that option. Since this report has been widely disseminated by the media, I think many people will take it as a cautionary tale.

[biscuitmom]

Originally Posted by RogersParkGuy

Because when "open-mindedness" includes submitting to unproven treatments, it is not open mindedness at all, but gullibility. And frankly, as a culture, we are if anything too quick to embrace "alternative" treatments.

I know a woman who was diagnosed with stage 1 breast cancer. Small mass, no metastasis. Had she undergone a mastectomy, her prognosis would have been excellent. But she was deeply committed to "natural" therapies. She relied on them for two years, refusing all conventional treatments. Finally, even her favorite "natural healer" recommended she visit an oncologist. She did. She is now at stage 4 and her prognosis is grim. She has two small children.

People at times tend to equate alternative and holistic treatment with "faith" healing, i.e. they must repudiate conventional mainstream medicine in order to reap the benefits.
It's entirely possible to embrace both holistic and mainstream treatment, especially when dealing with serious conditions like cancer. If ever I'm faced with a condition like you describe, I fully intend to integrate both.

[=^..^=]

Originally Posted by ellenrr

"As soon as the news came out about increased cancers, Dr's immediately took their patients off ERT and HRT."
BUT, you do know that as time went on, there is now a push to get patients back ON ert and hrt.
unfortunately, and amazingly...

Where did you learn this? A Gov site? A well known University site? If it's an alt site, I would take it with a grain of salt. Every single woman I know was taken off HRT or ERT and not one was encouraged to start taking them again.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Because those things PROVE whatever it is works, or at least helps. Worthless and dangerous meds are taken off the market. And there have been some, that's for sure. Think of HRT for example. As soon as the news came out about increased cancers, Dr's immediately took their patients off ERT and HRT. Who polices those dispensing herbs and supplements and other treatments for effectiveness and safety? Someone online today selling products and ideas and beliefs today can be long gone by tomorrow. The pharm' companies can be held accountable.


Why aren't they submitted for review? Why aren't those cured of whatever disease it is coming forward, medical records in hand and proving these claims? No one can find any of these cured people.

These all seem to be unsubstantiated claims. Those women cured of breast cancer for example, would be coming forward in the hopes of saving others. That's just human nature. So far, like Ms Clark's patients, that hasn't happened. It's such a waste too because I'm sure some of these treatments do work or at least help the sick person. But then cancer is a lot of diseases and there can never be a cure-all for all cancers.

But if a person has no training or experience in the medical field, seriously ill people would be foolish to take medical advice from them. Don't you agree?

[=^..^=]

Originally Posted by ino

1. I see what you mean. No, I meant the individual already has the medical information including whatever medications or treatments are applicable, and the prognosis, but if the prognosis doesn't look promising then I would try just about anything compared to the alternative end result.

And sadly, here's where the scammers and quacks come in along with those alt's legitimately trying to help you. It's difficult for someone with no medical background to tell the difference.

If the end result doesn't look good then what have I got to lose, I'm dead or whatever anyway, the end result may not change, but at least I gave it a try. Perhaps it's more a mental attitude to things and that's my attitude coming out I guess. I'd rather go down fighting if I can.

That makes sense,.... as long as you can avoid those out to take advantage of you and get as much of your money as possible before you die.

2. Yes, I agree, those things by and large DO prove they work, but who has the power and finance to push other modalities through the regulatory system?

The alt meds is a billion dollar industry. They can afford to run at least some trials. But it's all testimonials written by professional paid writers. I find that very unfair to those with no medical background and little knowledge of human physiology.

People simply haven't got the wherewithal to do that so must rely on anecdotal evidence and their own research, unless some other Organisation picks up the ball and starts running with it, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

But that's just the thing! Testimonials and anecdotal evidence is meaningless and can't be taken seriously. There is nothing to back it and most are written, as I stated above, by professional writers who themselves may know zero about, nor care about, alt meds. It's a job to them.

The pharma companies are not held accountable, flu vaccine for example, there is a signed paper that exonerates them from any legal come back. There is an excellent DVD titled "The Corporation", in that is explained how companies, and if memory serves that includes pharma companies, ignore many wrongdoings because they can afford to pay any fine imposed upon them. Things are not quite as clear cut as most would like to believe.

I'm aware of this and the multi-million/billion dollar suits brought against them. They don't get off Scott free. When they lose a suit - they have to pay up, and sometimes it runs into the millions. Have you ever heard of a alt med held accountable for someone's death or causing more harm to the person? And people are indeed harmed by alt meds as well as modern meds.

3. Refer to #2 re: Capacity to do so.

4. Again refer to #2

5. As for taking advice from non medical people...Yes, I can certainly go along with that, only to a degree though, as I said earlier, if the prognosis doesn't look good then what would I have to lose? It may improve the situation markedly, or it can take me out quicker, if it takes me out quicker then all I have done is speed up the process and possibly avoided much suffering perhaps, including suffering for others.

I don't disagree in the case where death looks inevitable and you can afford the treatments.

As I said, it may be a mental conditioning thing, I'm an extremely free spirit and like to maintain as much control over my destiny healthwise as possible <g>. One can read as much information as they wish, but time permitting they then should go away and digest it before making any decision on a particular alternative modality. Life is a risk.

Here's a good example of one of those three people I put up. I saw on the box recently where they are now treating prostate cancer by inserting two electrodes and running a frequency between them to destroy the tumour ~ Royal Raymond Rife used exactly that in his research, *frequencies*, and he was crucified by the medical authorities because he didn't want them to take control from him and his research.

And he himself and the medical authorities admitted that, or you read it on an alt site written by a professional writer knowing nothing about the topic him/herself? Where did you read about this prostate treatment using electrodes?

That was decades ago, and if the Authorities were prepared to work WITH him instead of trying to buy him out we may have seen some remarkable things happening today. Robert O Becker's research was absolutely riveting and held enormous potential for physically handicapped people. I believe too many people take too much on face value with published literature coming from Authorities while ignoring past researchers who bucked the system and have faded almost into obscurity.

Before taking this kind of info seriously, I would have to know where it was found or what medical journal published it.

[=^..^=]

Originally Posted by biscuitmom

It's entirely possible to embrace both holistic and mainstream treatment, especially when dealing with serious conditions like cancer. If ever I'm faced with a condition like you describe, I fully intend to integrate both.

That would probably be the safest route to take.

[=^..^=]

Originally Posted by nightlysparrow

Same thing with Steve Jobs, according to reports. Could have treated his cancer conventionally, but didn't, then later he no longer had that option. Since this report has been widely disseminated by the media, I think many people will take it as a cautionary tale.

Steve McQueen the actor also refused conventional cancer treatment and by the time he realized alt meds was not doing anything, it was too late for him.

[ino]

Originally Posted by =^..^=

And sadly, here's where the scammers and quacks come in along with those alt's legitimately trying to help you. It's difficult for someone with no medical background to tell the difference.




That makes sense,.... as long as you can avoid those out to take advantage of you and get as much of your money as possible before you die.



The alt meds is a billion dollar industry. They can afford to run at least some trials. But it's all testimonials written by professional paid writers. I find that very unfair to those with no medical background and little knowledge of human physiology.



But that's just the thing! Testimonials and anecdotal evidence is meaningless and can't be taken seriously. There is nothing to back it and most are written, as I stated above, by professional writers who themselves may know zero about, nor care about, alt meds. It's a job to them.



I'm aware of this and the multi-million/billion dollar suits brought against them. They don't get off Scott free. When they lose a suit - they have to pay up, and sometimes it runs into the millions. Have you ever heard of a alt med held accountable for someone's death or causing more harm to the person? And people are indeed harmed by alt meds as well as modern meds.



I don't disagree in the case where death looks inevitable and you can afford the treatments.



And he himself and the medical authorities admitted that, or you read it on an alt site written by a professional writer knowing nothing about the topic him/herself? Where did you read about this prostate treatment using electrodes?



Before taking this kind of info seriously, I would have to know where it was found or what medical journal published it.

Prostate treatment...I saw that on TV a week or so ago. If memory serves I think it was on the news here. I found this on the Net, but only put this snip up because it's a PDF which discusses other treatments. It comes from cruk.org {Cancer Research UK}

Quote ~~ High Intensity focused ultrasound (HIFU) for prostate cancer
When high frequency sound waves are concentrated on body tissues, those tissues heat up and die. To use this as a cancer treatment, the specialist targets the area containing the cancer. Because the prostate gland is deep within the pelvis, you have HIFU for prostate cancer by putting an ultrasound probe into your back passage (rectum).
Results from trials have shown that HIFU can be a successful treatment for prostate cancer. But we have to be sure that the long term results will be as good as surgery or radiotherapy. The treatment hasn't been around long enough for us to know that yet. The National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) recommend that it is only used within a clinical trial. ~~ End Quote.

Testimonials and anecdotal evidence...Yes, you are right of course, but I was referring to personal experiences in dealing with a particular alternative one may choose, or may have chosen. I don't believe 90% of written material splashed all over the place, and pretty much ignore the remaining 10% as I am well aware of the sharks out there competing for an individuals dollar. Being a sceptic I prefer to did a little deeper rather than putting faith in all those marketing blurbs <g>.

All of those chaps histories can be found anywhere on the Net, if they are still available on the Net that is.

Law suits...They can afford to pay as you say, that is why they appear to not be unduly concerned about suits being brought against them. I agree also that there are issues with both mainstream and alt meds, and I for one appreciate that this is recognised, but most seem to criticise or dismiss alt meds outright without having any appreciable understanding or knowledge of a given particular alt med. To put it simply, if there is no mainstream study, it's quackery, and that is misleading and dishonest. {opinion}

Returning to the OP's original post, I would like to see more people developing a more open mind on both mainstream *and* alt meds. Care and some research work should be done by the individual before making their decision of course.

[AnonChick]

Proton beam radiation therapy is being *studied*...it isn't in use, it's not approved. It's radiation therapy.
There's also high intensity focused ultrasound (which I think ino is referring to) - but it is a HUGE HUGE difference from the electromagnetic boxes sold by fraudulent companies to unsuspecting dupes, or unscrupulous persons who have managed to get chiropractor or other professional licenses who know darned well these boxes don't do a damned thing except maybe move the second-hand on an old fashioned watch and cause a compass to spin.

The theories of Rife had merit, but he tried to use them in the practice of medicine without getting them approved as medical devices. He had faulty research, faulty machinery, faulty testing, faulty trials, and so the government turned him down when he applied for approval. That was when he became bitter and claimed that there was a government conspiracy against him. He didn't have a cure for cancer. He had all his notes, all his information, all of it available, and since his death, NO ONE has ever been able to create a machine that replicated his alleged successes. Even though his information and plans and the original boxes themselves were intact and available for any engineer to study.

Many people have created machines - but NONE of them have shown that they cure cancer, or treat cancer, or prevent cancer, or mutate cancer.

However - the scientific community did agree that the idea of electricity and sound might have use in medicine. That's why we have ultrasound and MRIs and yes, it's also why we have the high frequency ultrasound probing for prostate cancer. But according to the National Cancer Institute, even that is only presently being studied in clinical trials. It has not yet proven itself to be medically useful. But it IS approved for testing, which means it shows promise.

Here's some information from the National Institute of Health - specifically the World Journal of Clinical Oncology: High intensity focused ultrasound in clinical tumor ablation

There's an upper size limit for the use of this type of treatment - just a few centimeters.

This part is pretty interesting - it explains how the mechanical side of HIFU works (there's the thermal aspect and the mechanical aspect) - the paragraph sort of near the top, that starts with this sentence:

Mechanical effects induced by HIFU are associated with acoustic pulses only at high intensities, including cavitation, micro-streaming, and radiation force.

Here's the bad news with regards to the use of HIFU and prostate cancer - High intensity focused ultrasound in clinical tumor ablation
Basically - many attempts were just flat out unsuccessful. Some were successful but only if the entire prostate was destroyed in the process - targetting *only* the cancer failed to work. And the complications - such as chronic infection and chronic pain - make it difficult for many men to withstand the necessary continued treatments.

Regardless, HIFU isn't Rife's box. And Rife wasn't slammed for daring to find the cure for cancer. He didn't find the cure for cancer. And he was slammed for not following the procedures required by law to get things properly tested, and subjecting his patients to untested, unproven treatments. As a result, the medical conspiracists had a field day, which opened the doors for every fraudulent "inventor" to create a Rife box and push it on the unsuspecting masses.

[Beth56]

Originally Posted by AnonChick

Proton beam radiation therapy is being *studied*...it isn't in use, it's not approved. It's radiation therapy.

Proton Beam Therapy centers are all over the world. There are about a dozen currently operating in the USA, with maybe a half-dozen more in progress and/or design. And there are centers outside of the USA also. Proton Beam has been around since the 1950's. The first hospital-based Proton Beam center opened at Loma Linda Medical Center in 1990.

My husband was treated for prostate cancer with Proton Beam Therapy at Loma Linda in 2006/2007 and has been cancer free since then. His Blue Cross PPO insurance paid for everything.

[Kim in FL]

When the OP starts taking her own health and well being seriously, then she can start telling others how to take care of their own.