Question about international air line competition (people, travel, cons, conditions)

[PacoMartin]

Emirates Airlines and Qatar Airways fly from their home airport in the Middle East to JFK both with nonstops and with stopovers in Europe. Emirates flies with a layover in Milan, and Qatar Airways with a layover at London Heathrow. Both airlines use fifth freedom rights to sell tickets from JFK to Europe. Controversy has erupted because they are competing with USA and European airlines and stretching the limits of normal 5th freedom flights. Most fifth freedom flights around the world do not compete with nonstops on the same airline.

I would like to ask a hypothetical question regarding flights between Mexico City and Europe. Aeromexico is the only Mexican airline to fly to Europe on Dreamliners. They fly to Madrid, London, and Paris having abandoned flights to Rome, Barcelona, and Frankfurt. Aeromexico is in alliance with Air France and KLM and Delta (so connections via Atlanta are also available)

European airlines to Mexico City (7 daily flights from 6 cities and 5 countries)
British Airways London-Heathrow (daily with B747)
Iberia Madrid (twice daily A340-500)
Air France Paris-Charles de Gaulle (B747 but A380 service begins 3X/week in January 2016)
KLM Amsterdam
Lufthansa Frankfurt, Munich

Inevitably Emirates and Turkish Airlines will try to expand into Latin America. Now Istanbul to Mexico City would be longer than the longest current route for Turkish Airline (Istanbul-Atatürk to Los Angeles: 6,871 miles). But it is within the range of the B777-300ER.

Dubai nonstop to Mexico City would be the longest commercial route in the world.

Who would have to give permission for Emirates to stop in Europe and fly to Mexico City? Would it make a difference, if they flew to a city like Milan, Rome, or Barcelona first where there is no competition as opposed to heavily contested but more profitable Mexico City to Madrid? I am presuming that the planes would not just refuel in Europe, but Emirates would be selling 5th freedom tickets for half the distance.

[MrPilot]

Originally Posted by PacoMartin

But it is within the range of the B777-300ER

The range has to be considered using it's MAX RANGE - (MTOW, which is usually the most restrictive, APU fuel (30-45mins low consumption), Taxi fuel (30-45míns), Extra Fuel (usually 45 mins, N-1), Cptns extra fuel, Fuel to alternate on single engine (N-1) at (210-230kts or normal holding speed)) = Normal Operating range.

Anyway I didn't quite fully understand your question, else I'd answer it.

[PacoMartin]

In the past, the airlines have stretched the equipment to achieve desirable ranges. The flights from LAX to HKG would sometimes stop and refuel in Tapei if winds were too strong. The flights from DFW to SYD when they used the B747 on a handful of occasions left without their luggage because of bad conditions. They used to stop in Brisbane to refuel before they switched the B747 for an A380.

But more often a flight is possible, but not economic. The nonstops from Singapore to LAX and EWR were stopped because they burned so much fuel (10X the weight of the passengers and luggage initially) that they couldn't turn a profit.

Originally Posted by MrPilot

Anyway I didn't quite fully understand your question, else I'd answer it.

I am assuming that Emirates could not reliably fly to Mexico City on an A380, but they might be able to on a B777-200LR like they are sending to Panama City. The more practical option would be to stop in Europe (presumably Madrid).

Who has to give Emirates permission to conduct 5th freedom flights from Madrid to Mexico City? The federal governments of Mexico and Spain? What rights do Iberia and Aeromexico (which both have twice daily flights on the route) in approving the potential Emirates flight?

What if Emirates opts to layover in Barcelona? Current travelers from Mexico to Barcelona have to transfer in Madrid.

Originally Posted by Fifth Freedom

For anyone unfamiliar with the concept I will illustrate by example. If Emirates were to fly one plane to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro they would not be able to sell tickets from SP to Rio as they are both in Brazil. But Emirates flies one plane to SP, and a second plane to Rio & Buenos Aires. Rio is 11900 km from DXB. Emirates fifth freedom would be the right to sell intermediate tickets from just Rio to Buenos Aires (2000 km). I don't know Emirates bother to do that, but in any case it would be unlikely to threaten the Brazilian and Argentine airlines that fly that route. One flight per day would only be flown by people looking for the novelty of getting on an Emirates plane.

An Emirates plane that stops in Madrid and continues onto Mexico City would be very different. If they had 5th freedom rights they might easily force Aeromexico or Iberia to eliminate one of their planes. Even a stopover in Barcelona might eliminate enough of the transfer passengers to do the same thing.