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Why do Latin Americans scream that they have no racism or that their societies are less racist when it is clear that whiteness is prized, that blackness isn't, and that black people aren't taking seriously?
They say it because there is less racial tension so its a perceived notion as wrongful as it may be. This is because black people in Latin America have not benefited from being in the richest and largest market in the world for over a century where access to technology and education trickled down and black people have amassed more economic power even if it is at a huge disparity compare to white US-America. All this combined with recent segregation laws heightening the 'one drop rule', 'brown paper bag', 'jim crowe' '3/5 a man', thing that were never enshrined into law in recent Latin American history made the perfect storm for a more forceful and stronger black empowerment movement. Where are the reparations for black people in the form of land rights in the US though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
I turn on Bloomberg TV and every afternoon I see dark blacks discussing the capital markets. I turn on news channels and I see similar people discussing affairs of state. Now how often will I see this in Latin America. And yes we will say that the USA is still racist and most Latins will claim it MORE racist than their nations even though upwardly mobile dark skinned blacks are way less visible.
In terms of Latin America you can only really narrow it down to where the black population more or less is relative to the percentage of total population. This means we should restrict the argument to countries like Uruguay, Brazil, (maybe Peru), Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Panama, (maybe Costa Rica), Nicaragua, Honduras, Cuba, DR and why not PR. And yes I'm in agreement with you representation is less and white is still glorified in these societies as it is in the US where mainly its the "acceptable black" commenting on markets on Bloomberg or whatnot, not much of the Andreiza Anaya of Canal Capital or Pache Andrade of RCN even in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
But you can excuse "negrito" and admit that "blanquito" is used less. Or the blatant bigoted portrayals of blacks in Latin America which existed not that long ago. Things that disappeared on US TV 60 years ago.
I also "excused" (as you put it) "guerito" and "mono". In fact I'm not excusing anything as there's nothing to excuse, it's just linguistic context and connotation. As for bigoted portrayals in media, I agree with you, should've been consigned to history much longer ago.
They say it because there is less racial tension so its a perceived notion as wrongful as it may be. This is because black people in Latin America have not benefited from being in the richest and largest market in the world for over a century where access to technology and education trickled down and black people have amassed more economic power even if it is at a huge disparity compare to white US-America. All this combined with recent segregation laws heightening the 'one drop rule', 'brown paper bag', 'jim crowe' '3/5 a man', thing that were never enshrined into law in recent Latin American history made the perfect storm for a more forceful and stronger black empowerment movement. Where are the reparations for black people in the form of land rights in the US though?
In terms of Latin America you can only really narrow it down to where the black population more or less is relative to the percentage of total population. This means we should restrict the argument to countries like Uruguay, Brazil, (maybe Peru), Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Panama, (maybe Costa Rica), Nicaragua, Honduras, Cuba, DR and why not PR. And yes I'm in agreement with you representation is less and white is still glorified in these societies as it is in the US where mainly its the "acceptable black" commenting on markets on Bloomberg or whatnot, not much of the Andreiza Anaya of Canal Capital or Pache Andrade of RCN even in the US.
I also "excused" (as you put it) "guerito" and "mono". In fact I'm not excusing anything as there's nothing to excuse, it's just linguistic context and connotation. As for bigoted portrayals in media, I agree with you, should've been consigned to history much longer ago.
Obviously it never significantly happened. Very minor reparations happened due to affirmative action, which conservatives tried their damnest to wipe out.
1. You are perfectly correct that the "one drop rule" isn't applied in the USA if one has a recent non black ancestor or if one's African ancestry is so distant or invisible as to be irrelevant.
2. Your description of the origins of the word "mulatto" are correct, but having said that its still used by several in Latin America, even in government publications. Its often seen as less offensive than "black". Latin Americans have argued with me (15% European) that I am a racist for not calling myself "mulatto". Its like "you have an ability to escape blackness, so you must hate whites for refusing to do so". They sad part is that they don't know how racist and offensive they are when the display this attitude, or call us "race obsessed" because we react to this.
As I always say I don't care what people call themselves. What I object to are double standards in how darker people are treated relative to lighter people.
Racism exits every where. Its that some places (the USA, UK, South Africa and the non Hispanic Caribbean) are honest enough to admit that it does, even if they argue as to the extent of its existence. France and Latin America seriously have mental breakdowns when ever the obvious existence of racism is pointed out to them. And I am called "rude" because I refuse to let them stop me from discussing this, much as they do to their own darker populations.
So what is your obsession with this? You cannot seem to let go of colorism yourself, so why do you have to always get into with Latin Americans with this?
You live in the United States. There's no real reason for you to care what happens in these countries.
I live in Spain. No real reason for me to care about what happens in Latin America. There are interesting things, and I did like my visits that but I am not about get worked up about their identity politics. I mean really, who cares?
Lastly, in terms of people whose European ancestry goes back to slavery, it depends on how that person identify. Some Creoles identify with that culture to the point of going to France or Canada to make sure their French is good.
But to the point where some of you have to keep arguing the US vs Latin America, I mean really who cares? Different people in the US identify differently, ditto Latin America. In the modern US nobody goes around hunting white people to find out if they have ONE DROP of Black blood. That notion is absolutely ABSURD. Lots of white people do DNA testing or dig up family records and find of a Black ancestor somewhere. No one cares.
They say it because there is less racial tension so its a perceived notion as wrongful as it may be. This is because black people in Latin America have not benefited from being in the richest and largest market in the world for over a century where access to technology and education trickled down and black people have amassed more economic power even if it is at a huge disparity compare to white US-America. All this combined with recent segregation laws heightening the 'one drop rule', 'brown paper bag', 'jim crowe' '3/5 a man', thing that were never enshrined into law in recent Latin American history made the perfect storm for a more forceful and stronger black empowerment movement. Where are the reparations for black people in the form of land rights in the US though?
In terms of Latin America you can only really narrow it down to where the black population more or less is relative to the percentage of total population. This means we should restrict the argument to countries like Uruguay, Brazil, (maybe Peru), Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Panama, (maybe Costa Rica), Nicaragua, Honduras, Cuba, DR and why not PR. And yes I'm in agreement with you representation is less and white is still glorified in these societies as it is in the US where mainly its the "acceptable black" commenting on markets on Bloomberg or whatnot, not much of the Andreiza Anaya of Canal Capital or Pache Andrade of RCN even in the US.
I also "excused" (as you put it) "guerito" and "mono". In fact I'm not excusing anything as there's nothing to excuse, it's just linguistic context and connotation. As for bigoted portrayals in media, I agree with you, should've been consigned to history much longer ago.
There were no such laws claiming that one drop of Black blood made you Black. Ever. As late as 1910 the US Census bureau recorded mixed race people as mulattos. After 1920 all people of African descent became COLOURED.
Some of you need to move on BEYOND this crap. Seriously!
There were no such laws claiming that one drop of Black blood made you Black. Ever. As late as 1910 the US Census bureau recorded mixed race people as mulattos. After 1920 all people of African descent became COLOURED.
Some of you need to move on BEYOND this crap. Seriously!
Coloured or Black, I never said the one drop rule was law, my main point was its affects and implementation during segregation laws in the mid 20th century.
Last edited by Pueblofuerte; 12-25-2019 at 07:47 AM..
Errrrmm, I've lived in PR albeit not long but was there for an extended stay and the amount of black representation in PR is low. Even Tego Calderon calls himself "negro y feo", "black and ugly". In Venezuela its worse, in the Carlos Vives' video with ChocQuibTown, Afro-Venezuelans comment on how they wish they had that kind of representation in the media of their country. The black Venezuelan youtuber DanJackson has talked about how he was discriminated on a regular basis in Venezuela and in the last census only 0.7% of the population identified as Afro-Descended!! I know you and your Venezuelan buddies might like to get together and have a biatch-fest about Colombia but don't be so naive as to buy into that nonsense. For many Venezuelans the sky is bluer in Venezuela, the grass greener and the rubbish smells nicer - its nostalgic nonsense.
Show me one other non-black majority country in the Americas that has given black communities reparations in terms of land rights? That's Huge! And of course JUST! Sure implementation is slow and dangerous thanks to insurgent groups and lack of political will/competence but it's written into the constitution and lawfully has to be protected.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Spanish America that has produced a "truly" black scientist to the standard of Raul Cuero who has worked for NASA and part of scientific research with the final aim of creating life on Mars.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America to have Wakanda inspired music videos in mainstream media.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America to have a black person win the prestigious Goldman award for environmental and social protection.
Show me one other non-black majority country where a mainstream group such as ChocQuibTown which promote black rights in their lyrics and black representation in their videos or where the most famous Salsa song is a protest song about slavery, 'Rebellion' by the master Joe Arroyo.
ChocQuibTown ft. Alexis Play lyrics;
"If we arrived with tremendous talent, imagine how it would've been if they would've released us in the ships" - Alexis Play
"Coming with the melanin burn of the skin, since before BENKOS, all of my ancestors, machines of rhythm with style, don't join the chorus if you're not with me" - Goyo Martinez
Show me one other non-black majority country in the Americas whose government has presented local African derived cultures to become World Intangible Heritage to the UNESCO of which three have been approved.
Show me one other non-black majority country in South America who has an icon such as Benkos Bioho that symbolises the black liberation movement.
Show me one other country in Latin America (aside from Brazil) where Afro-groups are sprouting up and down the country and where Afro-centric channels such as 'Afro Power', Afro-Up' or representatives like Yudis from Afro Power are making their fellow peers aware of their struggle in a neo-colonial American society.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America that celebrates and attends in large numbers and with nationwide activities in schools and public spaces up and down the country 'Black History' month just as they do in Colombia in May and particularly the week of the 21st May, which is officially Afro-Colombian day.
Colombia is a country that is half-way between the 'Sweep under the rug' mentality of Venezuela and I'll hazard to place PR in that sphere and the out-right demands and racial tensions experienced in the USA. Black people in Colombia do not feel fear when passing by a Police officer in an urban setting in the same way they do in the USA (I emphasise urban setting because the police uniform in Colombia is green and from afar anyone in uniform in some parts of rural Colombia may strike fear for obvious reasons). However, they also have yet to have formed the economical power black people in the US have amassed, black people in Colombia are far less urbanite than in the USA and still traditionally rural based although this has slowly changed in the past two decades.
The best thing you can do is talk to people, get their perspective. A lot of times we assume how people feel in a society without ever bothering to ask them. Since I´ve never lived in Venezuela, I can´t confirm or deny honestly how their Afro citizens are treated, I just know what I´ve heard trying to listen more than I talk to people from various backgrounds.
As someone who has LIVED (not just visited family for an extended period with rose-colored glasses) here, paid taxes, bought property, married a local, I think I´m entitled to an opinion-- perhaps maybe more so than you. Might be a tough pill to swallow, but I´ll pass you some guaro to help it go down.
Thank you though for showing me some perspective though as to why Afro-Colombians have achieved great things and do in fact get representation in the country. I have to whole-heartedly agree that things are looking up for them, but only for the ones who get out of the regions that are traditionally "theirs". A quick trip to Buenaventura or Tumaco tempers a lot of the positive vibes one may feel about what may be occurring within their single-digit percentage minority communties in Bogotá, MedellÃn, etc...Cali I guess would be a happy medium, a place where they have large amounts of representation percentage-wise and some upward social mobility.
My humble opinion puts Colombia in the middle of the pack in terms of race relations within Latin America as a whole. I stand by my assertion that things are a little better in PR. Not sure where you lived (and I don´t doubt or dismiss what you saw), but in places like Ponce and SJ I feel like there is a healthy Afro presence.
I arrived in the USA as a 25 year old and am relatively culturally unchanged. In NYC I am easily recognized as a Caribbean person before I open my mouth. Put it this way I am far more Guyanese than you are Colombian! I was raised by proud parents who wouldn't have tolerated being black being seen as a diminutive, while not seeing whiteness being portrayed similarly.
I have traveled to Latin America and have noted that I am treated BETTER than are the locals who look like me, once they know that I speak English and that I live in the USA. Places that are "private" suddenly becoming open to me when I open my mouth. Why do Latin Americans scream that they have no racism or that their societies are less racist when it is clear that whiteness is prized, that blackness isn't, and that black people aren't taking seriously?
I turn on Bloomberg TV and every afternoon I see dark blacks discussing the capital markets. I turn on news channels and I see similar people discussing affairs of state. Now how often will I see this in Latin America. And yes we will say that the USA is still racist and most Latins will claim it MORE racist than their nations even though upwardly mobile dark skinned blacks are way less visible.
But you can excuse "negrito" and admit that "blanquito" is used less. Or the blatant bigoted portrayals of blacks in Latin America which existed not that long ago. Things that disappeared on US TV 60 years ago.
I see "hahaha" when it is about blacks being made to look foolish, but when I ask if whites are made to look foolish based on being white, you call me "rude".
At least in Cuba, blanquito is used frequently, sometimes as a slur. Negrito is not a slur wnen referring to kids. Negrito comes from slavery, as all blacks were considered children. A very common slur directed at white Cubans is blanco sucio.
The N word in Cuba exists, niche, but not a slander as molleto, capirros, nail heads..
Errrrmm, I've lived in PR albeit not long but was there for an extended stay and the amount of black representation in PR is low. Even Tego Calderon calls himself "negro y feo", "black and ugly". In Venezuela its worse, in the Carlos Vives' video with ChocQuibTown, Afro-Venezuelans comment on how they wish they had that kind of representation in the media of their country. The black Venezuelan youtuber DanJackson has talked about how he was discriminated on a regular basis in Venezuela and in the last census only 0.7% of the population identified as Afro-Descended!! I know you and your Venezuelan buddies might like to get together and have a biatch-fest about Colombia but don't be so naive as to buy into that nonsense. For many Venezuelans the sky is bluer in Venezuela, the grass greener and the rubbish smells nicer - its nostalgic nonsense.
Show me one other non-black majority country in the Americas that has given black communities reparations in terms of land rights? That's Huge! And of course JUST! Sure implementation is slow and dangerous thanks to insurgent groups and lack of political will/competence but it's written into the constitution and lawfully has to be protected.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Spanish America that has produced a "truly" black scientist to the standard of Raul Cuero who has worked for NASA and part of scientific research with the final aim of creating life on Mars.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America to have Wakanda inspired music videos in mainstream media.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America to have a black person win the prestigious Goldman award for environmental and social protection.
Show me one other non-black majority country where a mainstream group such as ChocQuibTown which promote black rights in their lyrics and black representation in their videos or where the most famous Salsa song is a protest song about slavery, 'Rebellion' by the master Joe Arroyo.
ChocQuibTown ft. Alexis Play lyrics;
"If we arrived with tremendous talent, imagine how it would've been if they would've released us in the ships" - Alexis Play
"Coming with the melanin burn of the skin, since before BENKOS, all of my ancestors, machines of rhythm with style, don't join the chorus if you're not with me" - Goyo Martinez
Show me one other non-black majority country in the Americas whose government has presented local African derived cultures to become World Intangible Heritage to the UNESCO of which three have been approved.
Show me one other non-black majority country in South America who has an icon such as Benkos Bioho that symbolises the black liberation movement.
Show me one other country in Latin America (aside from Brazil) where Afro-groups are sprouting up and down the country and where Afro-centric channels such as 'Afro Power', Afro-Up' or representatives like Yudis from Afro Power are making their fellow peers aware of their struggle in a neo-colonial American society.
Show me one other non-black majority country in Latin America that celebrates and attends in large numbers and with nationwide activities in schools and public spaces up and down the country 'Black History' month just as they do in Colombia in May and particularly the week of the 21st May, which is officially Afro-Colombian day.
Colombia is a country that is half-way between the 'Sweep under the rug' mentality of Venezuela and I'll hazard to place PR in that sphere and the out-right demands and racial tensions experienced in the USA. Black people in Colombia do not feel fear when passing by a Police officer in an urban setting in the same way they do in the USA (I emphasise urban setting because the police uniform in Colombia is green and from afar anyone in uniform in some parts of rural Colombia may strike fear for obvious reasons). However, they also have yet to have formed the economical power black people in the US have amassed, black people in Colombia are far less urbanite than in the USA and still traditionally rural based although this has slowly changed in the past two decades.
If the best that you can do is cite one scientist who happens to be black in a nation with 5 million blacks you aren't doing that well. This doesn't exactly make your point.
Colombia has one of the largest economies in the Americas, and also has one of its largest black populations. What impact do these people have as far as the rest of the Americas is concerned? Are they visible? No! Unless one has a deep interest in Colombia they remain unknown. Blacks in Panama are better known, at least those of West Indian descent.
All that you describe is a late 20th and early 21st century phenomenon in response to aggressive attempts by blacks from the Choco region. Because this part of Colombia is so isolated from the rest of the country, and because those who live there represent a minimally mixed black population identify formation and attitudes towards "blackness" correlates more with what one will find in the non Latin American parts of the Americans. These people in fact mobilize around "blackness" much as do the West Indian descent populations in Central America as well as the Garifuna of Honduras and the Creoles of Nicaragua as well as the Raizales of San Andres. They were less shy in soliciting support from black communities in the USA and elsewhere in their struggles. This is why they dominate the debate around black empowerment in Colombia, even though they account for a minority of the black population there.
So loud were there protests that it even reached US Congress where the Congressional Black Caucus attempted to hold up a trade agreement with Colombia until it rectified its issues. So thank Charlie Rangel. This forced the involvement of the OAS, the IDB and many non Colombian institutions. Their plight is what has led to heightened interest in the position of Afro descendant peoples of Latin America, aside from those of Cuba and Brazil. The latter with their large black populations long having conversations around race and the socio economic status of these populations.
So please don't fool yourself that Colombia is some unique and benevolent nation. A mere 30 years ago Colombia was promoting itself as a mestizo/white nation. Its the collaborations of the people of Choco with many from OUTSIDE of Colombia which led to this state of affairs. This embarrassed Colombia into admitting that it has the 4th, 5th or 6th largest Afro descendant population (depending on how one defines these populations in Cuba and the DR). Of course the USA, Brazil and Haiti having more numerous Afro descendant populations.
But you need to tell us why there is this HUGE problem of internal displacement of people from the Choco and why their land rights aren't being enforced by the Colombian government. This land was theirs to begin with so obtaining official title isn't reparations. It is admission of a FACT.
Also admit that Choco is one of the places in the Americas which is scarcely better than Haiti. This even as one cannot classify Colombia as a poor country.
And please don't babble about black Colombians not feeling fearing when passing a cop. Law enforcement in Colombia don't have a good image and the most marginalized parts of Colombian society will have more reason to fear them than most.
At least in Cuba, blanquito is used frequently, sometimes as a slur. Negrito is not a slur wnen referring to kids. Negrito comes from slavery, as all blacks were considered children. A very common slur directed at white Cubans is blanco sucio.
The N word in Cuba exists, niche, but not a slander as molleto, capirros, nail heads..
Yes the issue with the use of "negrito" is that it infantilizes blacks. Viewed as non serious. Reinforcing a notion that blacks are good for music, dance, sex and nothing else, and that their opinions are of no consequence.
The way that blacks were portrayed in Latin America TV until loud reactions from US blacks drew attention to this is evidence of how blacks are often seen. Comedic characters but not fit to be surgeons or business tycoons. The scandal surrounding the racist Mexican stamp is an example of this. Amazingly people didn't understand how offensive such a depiction was, given that it correlates with widely held stereotypes of blacks.
The fact that blacks in Latin America have increased voice is because of their growing awareness of their silence in discourse in Latin America and of the fact that blacks in non Latin American nations have far more empowerment in advocating their interests and perspectives. It is for this reason that the IDB and the OAS mounted special initiatives aimed at Afro descendants in Latin America, given their traditional exclusion from national conversation. The struggles of those of Choco were a large reason for this when their plight became better known.
Lacking majorities, as in much of the Caribbean, or the economic clout of African Americans, with their well developed media, they were silenced and others were allowed to portray the notion of societies where racism wasn't a major conversation, simply because conversations around racism weren't allowed. Many blacks in Latin America are aware of what blacks in the English speaking world are doing and now wish the seem levels of empowerment in their discourse.
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