Solar power economical in AZ? (Phoenix: real estate, house, taxes)

[WSPHXPELON]

Originally Posted by corydon

Check your local laws, you wil be amazed how often it is against the rules. Or the HOA don't want to see them....

Wel, amazed.... the country biggest and most expensive nuclear power plant sits to the west, and has not been making money.......

That's an excellent point! Take in consideration that if you ever want a solar setup, you will probably need to make sure that you buy a home in a non-HOA area.

[wit-nit]

As of 2010...

An HOA may not restrict the installation or
use of a solar energy device; however, it
may adopt reasonable rules regarding the
placement of a solar energy device as long
as those rules do not negatively impact the
function, cost or efficiency of the device.

http://www.azleg.gov/briefs/Senate/H...SOCIATIONS.pdf

[WSPHXPELON]

Originally Posted by wit-nit

As of 2010...

An HOA may not restrict the installation or
use of a solar energy device; however, it
may adopt reasonable rules regarding the
placement of a solar energy device as long
as those rules do not negatively impact the
function, cost or efficiency of the device.

http://www.azleg.gov/briefs/Senate/H...SOCIATIONS.pdf

Good find. Personally, given my distrustful nature, I have a feeling that "Reasonable Rules" may be somewhat unreasonable. I could be wrong too though, I have never actually looked into it.

[observer53]

It can take a LONG time to recover the cost of installation. And, with all the controversy currently brewing at the Corporation Commission with APS and the home solar issue, I would not be rushing out to install solar.

[WSPHXPELON]

Originally Posted by observer53

It can take a LONG time to recover the cost of installation. And, with all the controversy currently brewing at the Corporation Commission with APS and the home solar issue, I would not be rushing out to install solar.

Depending on size/number of cells/panels of the system, I think your investment could be recouperated in 4-7 years. I admittedly have just started looking into this, but it appears that I could shell out approximately $30k initially then get about $15k of govt rebates back after first year...

What's going on with the corporation commission and APS? Ps if my estimates seem off I don't mind being corrected, I am just looking for more info, not trying to prove a point. Thanks in advance!

[Mack Knife]

In Arizona in locations where you have a lot of days in full sun Solar energy makes a lot of sense. Before you go that route though, consider some alternatives, like was suggested on this thread already:

Solar hot water heaters
Drying room for clothes (using solar energy)

With enough panels, you can send electric back into the grid but it can get expensive to buy and install such systems to the point where it takes more than a few years to recoup the initial costs. That is why leasing companies offer solar installation and you either lease the system from them or pay a lower amount for electricity and they make money in the difference between the rate you pay and what you'd get if you owned the system outright.

Beware that with a leased system, like a leased car, you don't own it. Once it's on the roof you are locked in and can't do anything to that roof that affects the solar energy harvest. Depending on how the lease is written, that could mean if you have a tree that is growing and provides shading on any area of the roof where the panels are installed, that would be a no-no. Sometimes, shading will provide quite a bit of benefit through lower cooling costs, especially in the late afternoons. That is just one example, there are others. Also, the solar panel industry is nearing the release of next gen panels with higher efficiency ratings meaning fewer panels to gain more solar harvest. Unless the lease provides for an upgrade, you could be locked into what could become an outdated system limiting your potential to reduce electric costs.

Try Arizona Wind Sun for a very valuable resource. They have a forum that is tops and very helpful people there where you'll get as much detail as you want. They have so many resources, you could learn all you need to know right there, from helping decide if solar is right for you to selecting equipment, installation and management of solar energy resources.

One thing to consider is how realistic solar energy harvest will fit into cost reductions for electricity. Here is what I mean:

Lets take two homes, one in Phoenix, Az and another in South San Francisco, Ca. Both locations get lots of sun (S. San Francisco in parts often doesn't get the fog banks) with Phoenix getting more sun. In Phoenix, what uses the most electricity? Probably the air conditioner, no easy way around that. In S. SF, it is probably something like the refrigerator, lights and so on, with most people using gas clothes dryers. In Phoenix, all other usage being the same, you have that one big draw of electricity that solar can't put too much of a dent in unless you have a huge roof with lots of panels. There are plenty of days when you start that AC before noon and it runs well into the late PMs right? The home in S.SF will provide the owner with a significant benefit because the solar is such a much larger offset compared to the monthly cost of electricity. Even though the actual rate of cost for electricity could be nearly the same, the perception isn't. Getting to a zero electric bill is easier in S.SF or a lot of temperate climate places than in places where it gets very hot with the sun shining all the time.

The above has nothing to do with economics though because the total savings is what some people care about most. Others care more about how they perceive the savings. The reason I bring this up is because solar energy in locations where electric usage is high for equipment like AC doesn't give you the large percentage of total actual cost savings. The home is S.SF might have a $70 average electric bill throughout the year, in Phoenix that is probably a dream.

That is why I suggest folks consider alternatives to solar panels while still using solar energy for the benefits. A solar clothes drying room (can be a small out building or something like that) can make a huge difference if you normally use an electric clothes dryer. Same with solar hot water. If both those equipment items are electric, rather than trying to reduce the costs through rooftop solar electric panels, putting up solar hot water panels and that drying room will pay for themselves very quickly, depending on how you do it, within months, not years. Of course you can do it all if you have enough space on your roof but a solar electric panel isn't ever going to save you as much in benefits as a solar clothes drying room. That room/closet will work well even on a cloudy or rainy day, the solar electric panels, zip.

One thing, grid tied is the way to go for the average home owner. The solar energy harvest is sent back into the grid as electricity and you get a reduced electric utility bill. You can go off-grid but be prepared for higher maintenance costs (batteries) and depending on what you are using it for, a more complex install since you'll probably end up doing it yourself as opposed to a contractor install for a grid tied system.

In the scheme of things, conservation or managing use is tops for saving money on energy. You'd be surprised that often you can conserve and reduce use with a far greater savings than adding a solar panel system. Of course, both is optimum but start with managing use before going to solar panels and then you might realize a greater reduction in costs compared to the total actual costs of electric. The amount of money saved through solar electric might be the same but you might feel better about the result.

So check out Arizona Wind Sun, just be prepared for sometimes gritty responses to questions and search first before asking. The info is there and if you'd rather, just call the company, they'll help too.

Disclaimer: I do not have any financial interest in Arizona Wind Sun, they just helped over the years with many projects from tiny to large scale.

[Scottay]

Originally Posted by Doctacity

PHX has over 300 sunny clear days per year, so yes, you will receive a great deal of benefits from using solar panels.

Energy savings not to mention the tax benefits.

Payback period is still high due to the high cost of installation. Something like 10 years.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by WSPHXPELON

Depending on size/number of cells/panels of the system, I think your investment could be recouperated in 4-7 years. I admittedly have just started looking into this, but it appears that I could shell out approximately $30k initially then get about $15k of govt rebates back after first year...

What's going on with the corporation commission and APS? Ps if my estimates seem off I don't mind being corrected, I am just looking for more info, not trying to prove a point. Thanks in advance!

Here's just one article:

http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...nt-nation.html


I think you are very optimistic in your payback time frame. It depends on how much the solar will actually save you, how much the installation costs, and whether the government rebates will actually get you that much, or that fast.

[WSPHXPELON]

Originally Posted by observer53

Here's just one article:

http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...nt-nation.html


I think you are very optimistic in your payback time frame. It depends on how much the solar will actually save you, how much the installation costs, and whether the government rebates will actually get you that much, or that fast.

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

[Hoonose]

I installed solar back in 2008, and as long as there are tax credits and such it should remain a sensible investment if your physical roof structure and orientation permits it. My system puts out about 10KW and cost to me was about $25K. I pay less for electricity today than 30 years ago, same house! March to June I use next to no outside juice, so my bill is $8 and change, as low as you can go with fees and such. Maximum used to be over $600 in Aug, now my highest has been $238.

Mine is better than a 10 year return on investment. That's better than a 10% tax free return, which was very difficult to get with any investment back in 2008. Today the return is faster since the panels are 50% cheaper, 10% smaller and more 15% more efficient. As rates rise, the return is that much faster.

The last thing is that the panels of course add to the value of your house. And I would think making it easier to sell. But the value of the installation does not add to your assessed value by law. So another bonus.