Permits for R2R (Phoenix, Parks: 2014, insurance, how much)

[grmi66]

Just a heads up for anyone planning a trip to do a Grand Canyon rim to rim, rim to river or rim to rim to rim. The NPS just announced it this morning that permits will now be needed for any organized trip.

Grand Canyon Announces Interim Permits for Organized Groups Conducting Rim-to-Rim and Extended Day Hiking and Running - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

At this point from the discussion I have seen on other forums, the NPS considers a Facebook posting, a MeetUp announcement, a sign up sheet for a scout troop or church group to be an organized event. If you post privately and just want gas & beer money you are now considered the "organizer". The NPS will be monitoring Facebook and MeetUp to find people organizing trips. This starts in two weeks.

[azdr0710]

thanks for finding this, grmi

I suppose it was getting out of hand....I did a few r-r-r hikes in the mid-90s and I can only imagine how much more popular long-distance running/hiking in a day is now with internet chatter

[grmi66]

There were some large organized groups last year that kind of blew it for everyone. The toilets at Phantom Ranch and other spots along the trail were overflowing by 8 AM. According to the articles, last October (the most popular month to do the hike) on the weekends there would be over 800 people trying to get across the canyon. Last time I did it in the early 00's there might have been 20-30 people trying it on an October weekend.

MeetUp is a big culprit, some of the people who post shouldn't be posting or should really screen out people. Did a hike last year to the top of 4 Peaks and there was a MeetUp group of 30+ people trying to get up there. Of the 30, maybe 10 should have been there, it was an accident waiting to happen. Plus it's against the rules to bring more than 15 people at a time into a designated wilderness area. The parking area was not built for that many vehicles and there are no bathrooms up there. Have nothing against MeetUp, I use it myself from time to time but some of the people that organize events should think a little bit more.

[azdr0710]

check this jerk out....this may've been the catalyst for the change:

Grand Canyon National Park | National Parks Traveler

[locolobo13]

That's too bad. Although it's easy to see the necessity. I've always wanted to do the Canyon rim to rim. But I wanted to backpack thru it. Currently not in shape for either a backpack or hike across the Canyon.

[grmi66]

Originally Posted by azdr0710

check this jerk out....this may've been the catalyst for the change:

Grand Canyon National Park | National Parks Traveler

He's not the only one. There is a guy that I know that brought 3 busloads of people up to the canyon last October. Got busted when rangers noticed about 100 people all wearing the same shirt.

Have nothing against people doing rim to rim, I've done it myself in the past and will probably do it again in the future. But it has gotten too popular, people who have no business going into the canyon or who do not practice "leave no trace" should not hike and/or run in the canyon. It's not just in Arizona but other states as well. With the internet people get ideas about other tough outdoor activities that they should not attempt. Get annoyed on some trails that get plugged up with folks that are unprepared or unskilled, yet attempt them anyways.

[grmi66]

Alright, I sent an email to the Grand Canyon this morning to get clarification. Asked about a scenario of 4-5 friends who did not post publicly on Facebook but communicated via email and Facebook messenger. Here is what the rangers sent me:

"We apologize for any confusion that this new SUP is causing. You will not need a permit under this new agreement. It is meant to address organized runs, hikes, and activities that would put an extra strain on the staff and trail.

Thank you for your interest in Grand Canyon National Park"

From looking at the responses rangers have sent to other people it appears the key word is "organized". So if you posted the event publicly on Facebook or MeetUp or on another website then it's an event that was organized. Throwing a few emails between friends is not. Scout troops, church groups, schools and similar meet the requirement of being organized as well and would require a permit. The permit cost $175 and among some of the requirements is proof of $300,000 of liability insurance and 1-2 certified first aid people.

[jamies]

I'm just really annoyed that I can't have a chopper pick me up at the Tovar Lodge bar and fly me in and out of the canyon. Pahh yew little people gotta mess it up.

As for overloading the sewer at Phantom Ranch, let's not forget Las Vegas dumps 100 MILLION gallons of treated sewage into Lake Mead and the Colorado River - every day. 36 BILLION gallons a year!

And LA and Phoenix drinks it! ROFL!