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Why don't we let the market decide like all good conservatives pretend they like? The RE market in California Metro areas is up by 100% since 2000 whereas it's up by 50% in Phoenix. That means Phoenix is now 100% less attractive to people than it was in 2000 compared to California. In other words only cheap low-lifers move to Arizona. That's not my opinion, that is what the market says and what all conservatives should belief in like it's the highest law. And please don't be hypocrite about it.
Commenting on this post is like being a mosquito in a nudist colony. Where to begin?
"...all good conservatives...." indicates a tendency to see only groups of people, not individuals. In this case "all...conservatives" think alike (in this post they're not actually thinking, they're just 'pretending'). It makes for good politics (mostly from individuals on the liberal side of the isle) where all people of a certain group are alike: gender, class, race, etc. Replaces the older meme "they all look alike".
Secondarily, property values are not solely determined by preferences of gun ownership, political leanings or income levels. A HUGE impact on current California property values is foreign investment, specifically Chinese. It will be interesting to see what happens to the CA metro boom (which I believe is overheated) as the Chinese economy sinks.
Leads me to my final point on the post: "....in other words only cheap low-lifers...." this would include all (remember, there's no difference in people, only groups) who might find housing in the area attractive and prefer living in the desert. This would include 'all' retired military, police, doctors, lawyers, teachers, plumbers, construction workers, etc. because, they are ALL "low-lifers" if they move to Phoenix. The "low-lifers" appear to be in pretty good company.
Actually I think what the other poster was trying to say is that the greater rise in property values in California occurred because of greater demand there and that the greater demand is indicative of California being "more desirable" than Arizona. Greater desirability leads to greater demand, which leads to a greater increase in home prices.
At least I think that was the point trying to be made.
Ken
The whole point of this thread was to point out that people are leaving liberal states because of unfair state policies and practices, California was one of the biggest losers
Taxpayers Fleeing Democrat-Run States for Republican Ones
You'll fit right in. I'm moving out of Colorado next year to Arizona. Colorado has gone to hell and too much like California, skyrocketing cost of living and tired of snow. Looking forward to owning a firearm myself, will take some classes to get up to speed.
Clearly I won't fit in. I am also a veteran. Also ride a Harley D. motorcycle, active in the American Legion and own several guns. However I do like our president because I like leaders who vote for veterans.
GOP Voted Against 7 Bills to Help Veterans
Here's the Bills in numerical order. In short, the GOP has voted TO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS at least 7 times. I think that is sufficient to call the GOP House Hypocrites and Phonies.
Bill's Blocked By Republican's Since President Obama Took Office. I used to dislike him too until I started reading who voted for what and realized that the elected rethuglicans who come to Legion halls every holiday and smile at us Vets are not for us at all and only use us for props.
Here's a concise extraction for easy viewing for those who are INTERESTED IN VETERANS ISSUES and need to know which party supports veterans and which party does not.
The rejected Bills are named:
H.R. 466 – Wounded Veteran Job Security Act became H. R. 2875.
H.R. 1168 -- Veterans Retraining Act
H.R. 1171 – Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program Reauthorization
H.R. 1172 -- Requiring List on VA Website of Organizations Providing Scholarships for Veterans
H.R. 1293 -- Disabled Veterans Home Improvement and Structural Alteration Grant Increase Act of 2009
H.R. 1803 -- Veterans Business Center Act
H.R. 2352 – Job Creation Through Entrepreneurship Act
DETAILS OF BILLS REJECTED BY REPUBLICANS:
H.R. 466 – Wounded Veteran Job Security Act – This bill would actually provide job security for veterans who are receiving medical treatment for injuries suffered while fighting in defense of their country. It would prohibit employers from terminating
employees who miss work while receiving treatment for a service-related disability.
H.R. 1168 -- Veterans Retraining Act – This bill would provide for assistance to help veterans who are currently unemployed with their expenses while retraining for the current job market.
The whole point of this thread was to point out that people are leaving liberal states because of unfair state policies and practices, California was one of the biggest losers
Taxpayers Fleeing Democrat-Run States for Republican Ones
Quote:
Top 5 loser states for Democrat governors in 2013:
· New York (114,929 people with $5.7 billion in AGI)
· Illinois (68,943 people with $3.8 billion in AGI)
· California (47,458 people with 3.8 billion in AGI)
· Connecticut (14,453 people with $1.8 billion in AGI)
· Massachusetts (11,915 people with $1 billion in AGI)
Top 5 winner states for Republican governors in 2013:
· Texas (152,912 people with $6 billion in AGI)
· Florida (74,094 people with 8.3 billion in AGI)
· South Carolina (29,176 people with 1.6 billion in AGI)
· North Carolina (26,207 people with $1.5 billion in AGI)
· Arizona (16,549 people with $1.5 billion in AGI)
You keep posting links from ATR which is a questionable source considering the type of work they do.
I mentioned this earlier but in your top five you have 4 in cold weather climates and California, in your gains you have 5 states in the sunbelt which has been growing since Air Conditioning became viable.
What ATR is inferring is that people are moving from Blue States (doesn't make the populace liberal) to states with conservative voting records as the issue of the move. What ATR and organizations like it do are create inferences out of data but they are usually backed by some sort of motive and declare a fact. ATR has an explicit motive to oppose taxes, they then find data make an inference and make it the reason. Below is another inference that they chose to ignore because it's beyond their scope and doesn't match what they are trying to prove.
An equally compelling inference that can be drawn from this exact same list is that people are leaving cold weather climates for warm weather climates, as all 5 gaining states are in the sunbelt. In fact 4 of the gaining states are particularly popular with retirees and have been favorable with Americas largest retiring class ever (boomers) so it could reasonably be inferred that Americas largest retiring class ever is moving from the cold climates where they earned their money and retiring to warm states and are bringing their money with them. Surely warm climates are easier on our seniors' bones, health is probably a larger issue than politics are for most.
California has many issues beyond its political difficulties, remember it's a large and diverse state which comes with divergent political beliefs, but it's in an extreme drought, is crowded , has a water crisis, landslides and extreme forest fires. I'd leave for those reasons alone.
You keep posting links from ATR which is a questionable source considering the type of work they do.
I mentioned this earlier but in your top five you have 4 in cold weather climates and California, in your gains you have 5 states in the sunbelt which has been growing since Air Conditioning became viable.
What ATR is inferring is that people are moving from Blue States (doesn't make the populace liberal) to states with conservative voting records as the issue of the move. What ATR and organizations like it do are create inferences out of data but they are usually backed by some sort of motive and declare a fact. ATR has an explicit motive to oppose taxes, they then find data make an inference and make it the reason. Below is another inference that they chose to ignore because it's beyond their scope and doesn't match what they are trying to prove.
An equally compelling inference that can be drawn from this exact same list is that people are leaving cold weather climates for warm weather climates, as all 5 gaining states are in the sunbelt. In fact 4 of the gaining states are particularly popular with retirees and have been favorable with Americas largest retiring class ever (boomers) so it could reasonably be inferred that Americas largest retiring class ever is moving from the cold climates where they earned their money and retiring to warm states and are bringing their money with them. Surely warm climates are easier on our seniors' bones, health is probably a larger issue than politics are for most.
California has many issues beyond its political difficulties, remember it's a large and diverse state which comes with divergent political beliefs, but it's in an extreme drought, is crowded , has a water crisis, landslides and extreme forest fires. I'd leave for those reasons alone.
The source of these statistics is the IRS, let me repeat IRS you cannot change the truth by ignoring historical data, the Federal IRS government statistics says people are leaving liberal states
The link provided had a blue link to the IRS data as the data source
The source of these statistics is the IRS, let me repeat IRS you cannot change the truth by ignoring historical data, the Federal IRS government statistics says people are leaving liberal states
The link provided had a blue link to the IRS data as the data source
Right, the source of the fact is the IRS that wasn't disputed, the source of the inference is American's for Tax Reform, ATR is inferring a cause from a set of facts (IRS data).
Which is exactly what I just did but we came to different conclusions. The IRS isn't attributing politics to migration ATR is, you are going off ATRs inferences as if they are factual reasons and I am pointing out to you that there are many inferences that can be drawn from the exact same data, thus they aren't factual reasons but mere inferences from facts.
The only 'facts' being presented are that people are migrating, the cause is what is being inferred by ATR, I am inferring a different but also supported inference from the IRS data.
ATR is looking at Data that only points to people migrating from one place and people migrating to another place then inferring politics is the reason. They are a tax lobby so it makes sense why they would reach that conclusion.
Yes and no, Phoenix proper is a left leaning city that gets more liberal the closer to the center like anywhere else. Phoenix just re elected a democrat mayor and has been for decades it also passed a 30 billion dollar transportation bill. Tempe is a liberal college town and south Scottsdale tends to lean liberal. Likewise North Scottsdale, Gilbert, Mesa and Glendale tend to lean much more conservative. Chandler is pretty mixed.
Small towns, Pinal county is conservative, Mohave County is conservative, Yuma and La Paz counties are conservative. Heck even Tucson is conservative once you venture out of Downtown and Midtown. The only small counties that lean liberal are Coconino and Pima and id wager the universities play a role in that.
It's not really all that different, as a metro Phoenix is suburban by nature, suburban areas tend toward conservative residents. It has a large proportion of conservatives in this manner, but the reality of the voters are more of a purple. The political clout in this state resides in the East Valley which, save for Tempe and Chandler is incredibly conservative. Hence why our state politics represent very different parties than our local politics do.
I actually think Arizona will get more purple with time not more conservative.
I don't think Arizona will turn more red, but less red. For Arizona to turn purple it would take a lot of work. We can get into the technicalities of it but really Arizona is known for being conservative (and it will deter liberals just as some very blue states deter conservatives). It will for a long time, unless drastic changes to our largest population which are the Phoenicians since Phoenix metro is what sways most of the votes for this state.
Not sure if I agree with Tucson being conservative. Maybe Marana and Oro Valley...
To be fair Arizona has one of the lowest voter turn-out rates in the country. If Arizona say had a voter turn-out rate like Minnesota (one of the highest voter turn-out rates) I don't think our politics would be as red as they are now.
Right, the source of the fact is the IRS that wasn't disputed, the source of the inference is American's for Tax Reform, ATR is inferring a cause from a set of facts (IRS data).
Which is exactly what I just did but we came to different conclusions. The IRS isn't attributing politics to migration ATR is, you are going off ATRs inferences as if they are factual reasons and I am pointing out to you that there are many inferences that can be drawn from the exact same data, thus they aren't factual reasons but mere inferences from facts.
The only 'facts' being presented are that people are migrating, the cause is what is being inferred by ATR, I am inferring a different but also supported inference from the IRS data.
ATR is looking at Data that only points to people migrating from one place and people migrating to another place then inferring politics is the reason. They are a tax lobby so it makes sense why they would reach that conclusion.
Am I being clear
FACT is the top 5 states where people are leaving are Democratic states and the top 5 states where people are moving to are conservative states and you want to pass this off as coincidence?
You have a right to your opinion but reasonable,logical,rational people look at facts not feelings.
Liberals want to muddy the waters to see things through feelings and emotions, conservatives want to see facts and figures so they can make informed, educated decisions.
Fact is people are leaving the liberal states and moving to more conservative states and we know why, liberal policies are destructive to freedom and liberty. The migration patterns shows proof of this.
Am I being clear?
Quote:
Between 2009 and 2010 the five biggest losers in terms of “residents lost to other states” were all prominent redoubts of progressivism: California, New York, Illinois, Michigan, and New Jersey. Meanwhile, the five biggest winners in the relocation sweepstakes are all commonly identified as red states in which Republicans generally dominate local politics: Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Arizona, and Georgia. Expanding the review to a 10-year span, the biggest population gainers (in percentage terms) have been even more conservative than last year’s winners: Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, and Texas, in that order.
The whole point of this thread was to point out that people are leaving liberal states because of unfair state policies and practices, California was one of the biggest losers
Taxpayers Fleeing Democrat-Run States for Republican Ones
Quote:
Top 5 loser states for Democrat governors in 2013:
· New York (114,929 people with $5.7 billion in AGI)
· Illinois (68,943 people with $3.8 billion in AGI)
· California (47,458 people with 3.8 billion in AGI)
· Connecticut (14,453 people with $1.8 billion in AGI)
· Massachusetts (11,915 people with $1 billion in AGI)
Top 5 winner states for Republican governors in 2013:
· Texas (152,912 people with $6 billion in AGI)
· Florida (74,094 people with 8.3 billion in AGI)
· South Carolina (29,176 people with 1.6 billion in AGI)
· North Carolina (26,207 people with $1.5 billion in AGI)
· Arizona (16,549 people with $1.5 billion in AGI)
And the OP is making an ASSUMPTION on the REASON folks are moving to those winning states and away from those losing states.
Again, most of those "losing" states are COLD WINTER states - and ALL of the "winning" states are WARM WINTER states. The fact that you chose to ignore that doesn't make it irrelevant.
Wyoming is a red state, so is Montana, so is South Dakota, so is Nebraska, so is Kansas - why are THEY not in the "Top 5 winning states"? Probably because they are so damned COLD in the winter.
ALL those "winning" states are warm winter states. That is no coincidence.
Ken
Last edited by LordBalfor; 09-21-2015 at 09:28 PM..
I should also point out that the article linked to by autism36 is very misleading (probably deliberately). The claim is that folks are leaving states with Democrat governors for those with GOP governors and the OP provides a "top 5" and "bottom 5" list to make it APPEAR that all the top states are GOP run while all the bottom states are Democrat run - but that's not the case at all. The top 5 states are not "Texas, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina and Arizona". Those are simply the top 5 GOP-run states. Likewise the bottom 5 states are not all Democrat-run at all. Instead that "bottom 5" list is not the actual "bottom 5" but only the "bottom 5" of the Democrat-run states.
IF you actually go to the IRS web site linked to and drill down you'll see that the actual top 5 states are Texas, Florida, South Carolina, COLORADO and North Carolina. Colorado has a Democrat for its' governor.
Likewise the bottom 5 states are actually "PENNSYLVANIA, NEW JERSEY,California, Illinois and New York'" Of those Pennsylvania had (at the time the data was tabulated) a GOP governor. and of course so does New Jersey. So 2 of the "bottom 5" states were (at the time in question) GOP run.
The upshot is that there is no specific correlation between what party is leading the state and whether or not the list of tax-payers is growing or shrinking. Some Democrat-run states are growing and some are shrinking. Some GOP-run states are growing and some are shrinking.
In effect, the article that autism36 refers to is simply a misleading pile of BS.
Here is the actual IRS document, showing the REAL top 5 and bottom 5 without cherry-picking to winnow out GOP-led states from the bottom 5 and the Democrat-run state from the top 5:
Articles such as the one linked to by Autism360 are the reason sources such as ATR are not to be trusted. Americans for Tax Reform has a very specific right-wing agenda and they simply twist the facts though careful omission and other dishonest techniques to try and push their agenda. If their case was really so strong there would be no need to twist the facts with such techniques.
Ken
Last edited by LordBalfor; 09-22-2015 at 12:05 AM..
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