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As someone who's shopped all over the state for vehicles multiple times I'd suggest shopping nation wide. I've found wayyy better deals outside AZ than I ever have in the state...
Sure, but I think the OP, should they end up buying a Jeep, can get a good deal close to home since the dealer I mentioned is a high-volume dealer. The way that Chrysler incentives are set up, the high volume dealerships can almost give them away.
Yep, I'm biased. Because I've also owned both. First off, I never mentioned the Tundra. I own one right now, and it's nothing I'd take off-road any more than an F-150.
I only brought up the Tundra because you mentioned Jeeps as a whole. Not just the Wrangler. So I felt it fair to bring up the entire Toyota lineup as well. Far and away, the Jeep lineup is more offroad capable than the Toyota lineup.
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Originally Posted by Dangerous Dave
If you want to compare 1980's-90's Toyotas and Jeeps with 4-bangers, don't even. I had a 1994 YJ with the 2.5. After putting 31's on it, I had to pray for tail winds on the interstate. I had a head wind once, I was stuck in 4th gear going 45 mph while getting passed leisurely by everything else on the road. I instantly missed the old 22RE 4Runner I had before it, even with 31's it could eventually do 75 on the interstate.
Both the 2.5 and the 22RE are weak, no way around it. Ive never owned a 2.5 Jeep, nor would I. I mean, who buys a Wrangler with the 4 banger? That's like buying a V6 Mustang. Some things you just don't do.
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Originally Posted by Dangerous Dave
Sure, the original Toyota 3.0 V6 was a dog, and really no match for a Jeep 4.0. We had a Cherokee 4.0 and it was great if you could fit in it (I'm 6'3" and it was a bit cramped). The new Jeep Cherokee is an insult to the old ones. But even with the old Cherokees, with the open diffs and overheating problems on the trail, a stock Toyota pickup with the viscous coupling and a 4-banger could do circles around them off-road.
Here's where I think you're wrong. My old 87 (31" tires only mod) was horrid on the trails. I got stuck in frickin pea gravel, while my Jeep friends went through it like grass. And Ive never had any overheating problems in the Wrangler, nor have I known anyone else. Granted we were in a cold Northern IL climate, but even out here in the deserts of PHX when its 118 degrees it barely creeps over 210 degrees. The ground clearance on the 87 was ok, but the Jeeps had far more flex than I did. In other words, I went around rocks they were going over. My 90 with the IFS (even with a lift) still wasn't as capable as most of the stock Wranglers. That's when I decided to give up the Toyota badge for the Jeep, and I couldn't be happier.
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Originally Posted by Dangerous Dave
And I've driven the lesser Jeeps lately as rental cars. Joke. I'm sure their reliability is less than stellar, being they're all based off of low-end Dodge/Chrysler cars.
I would agree. Mopars are questionable. But being a car guy, I would far prefer a Mopar with some looks and soul and passion than the soul-sucking Toyotas of late. Toyota has left the enthuisiast in the dust, while Mopar has embraced them. And to me, that means everything.
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Originally Posted by Dangerous Dave
Okay, you have a TJ with a 4.0. Great vehicle. Too bad Jeep stopped making them and now they're getting tough to find with low mileage, and the ones you do find are demanding big $$$. When the JK came out, it was a joke. Underpowered (more than any Toyota with that size of a motor) 80's minivan engine and it was a risk to turn it off out in the boonies because it might not turn back on. A friend of ours drove the JK when they first started to show up at the dealerships (in 2006-7 I believe) and immediately drove home and started calling up Jeep dealers looking for leftover TJ's. You're better off with a used Land Rover than an early JK. That's scary.
Yes, like Toyota, Jeep has had to abandon reliable old tech in favor of emissions-friendly new tech. I would agree that I wouldn't touch the JK with a 10-foot pole. Same goes for the new Tacomas. I don't like the engines in them, and they're too small, overpriced, and overrated. So what does that leave me with in the Toyota lineup? That leaves me with the FJ. Once again, NO THANK YOU. Too ugly, too slow, and if Im buying an offroad vehicle, that would be one of my last choices. Visibility is HORRIBLE.
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Originally Posted by Dangerous Dave
Yes, Land Cruisers are pricey. So are Rubicons. That's why I mentioned the Rubicon, it's the only newer Jeep worth having if you can afford it. For half the price, you can find plenty of used Land Cruisers that do better on the road and aren't difficult to get them to match the capability of the Rubicon. I've yet to see any Jeep go 250-300K without an overhaul. Land Cruisers are notorious for it. My current Cruiser has 205K on it, doesn't burn a drop of oil.
Land Cruisers are way more expensive than Rubicon's, and not as capable (especially a TJ). And I don't think any respectable offroader gives two craps about how it does on-road. But if you're mentioning on-road, the Wranglers are always more fun and infinitely more attractive to the eye. Sales figures reflect that. Who wants to be stuck in a boring beige barge Toyota (ie Land Cruiser) when you can have the top down and doors off in a Wrangler? The on-road fun factor in a Jeep just cant be touched. Plus, when its in the garage, you can stare at the Wrangler for hours, admiring its simple, purposeful beauty. Land Cruiser invoke gag reflexes and yawns. And if you've never seen a Jeep go 250K miles without an overhaul, Id say you don't get out much. There are soooooooooo many examples (especially the 4.0L) with far more miles than that, with out so much as any overhaul work.
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Originally Posted by Dangerous Dave
Our local Jeep dealer has a Rubicon 2-door soft top 6-speed for $39k For way less than that, you can find a low mileage FJ Cruiser or 4Runner Trails Edition. They're more than capable for any trail in the state of AZ.
Yes, they 4Runner is pretty capable, but.... its UGLY. Its soulless. Its a plastic fantastic box of Toyota hideousness. Yes, the Rubicons are pricey, no one is denying that. But its also more capable than any Toyota, looks better, is more fun to drive, and holds its resale just as good. Its a no brainer for me. THe only 4Runner I'd take over a new Rubicon is an old '88. Any 4Runner after that just got too heavy, too unfocused, and too overpriced/overrated.
[quote=BIG CATS;46552499]I only brought up the Tundra because you mentioned Jeeps as a whole. Not just the Wrangler. So I felt it fair to bring up the entire Toyota lineup as well. Far and away, the Jeep lineup is more offroad capable than the Toyota lineup.
Mmm... I don't think I'd take any Jeep other than a Wrangler to do the wheeling that I do. I'd get a Renegade or Grand trashed or flipped in a hurry.
Both the 2.5 and the 22RE are weak, no way around it. Ive never owned a 2.5 Jeep, nor would I. I mean, who buys a Wrangler with the 4 banger? That's like buying a V6 Mustang. Some things you just don't do.
That's a different discussion for a different day. Sometimes I think Ford made the V6 Mustangs dog-ugly to shame people into coughing up the extra cash to get the GT. As for YJ's, the only outside indicator was the 4.0 sticker below the tail light. To be honest, for the 90% of people who bought YJ's to look cool and never put a lift on them, the 4-banger worked fine.
Here's where I think you're wrong. My old 87 (31" tires only mod) was horrid on the trails. I got stuck in frickin pea gravel, while my Jeep friends went through it like grass.
Toyota went to a standard limited slip rear in 1995, even on standard 22RE pickups. Worked pretty well, a friend bought one and yes, his did a lot better off-road than my '87 4Runner. And my Bronco. And my '95 YJ with fully-open 35's.
And Ive never had any overheating problems in the Wrangler, nor have I known anyone else. Granted we were in a cold Northern IL climate, but even out here in the deserts of PHX when its 118 degrees it barely creeps over 210 degrees. The ground clearance on the 87 was ok, but the Jeeps had far more flex than I did. In other words, I went around rocks they were going over. My 90 with the IFS (even with a lift) still wasn't as capable as most of the stock Wranglers. That's when I decided to give up the Toyota badge for the Jeep, and I couldn't be happier.
I was referring to the XJ. The radiator is about the size of a cookie sheet, since cramming the 4.0 into an engine bay originally designed to hold the pitiful GM 2.8 (you were better off with the four) was an engineering coup d'etas. Earlier 4.0 XJ's were worse than the later ones after they hashed out some of the flaws, but even the last XJ's were hard to cool off-highway. A friend has a 2001, he had to take breaks on the trail (probably to cool, or possibly to crack a beer and make fun of my FJ Cruiser that, btw wasn't pegging the temp gauge) while the TJ's were doing fine.
I would agree. Mopars are questionable. But being a car guy, I would far prefer a Mopar with some looks and soul and passion than the soul-sucking Toyotas of late. Toyota has left the enthuisiast in the dust, while Mopar has embraced them. And to me, that means everything.
I'm getting to old to get stranded out in nowheresville. Besides, in my part of the country you'll end up grizzly food if you're trying to hike back to civilization to get cell signal. Unless you're in a group, that takes Jeep out of the equation, especially a 3.8 JK.
But I agree on the product line, Mopar had Bob Lutz to drag them out of the ho-hum 80's and take some risks with design again, something that died with Virgil Exner in the 70's. Think Viper and the truck redesign in the early 90's. Toyota is to cars what Honda is to motorcycles... there's a petcock where Mr. Toyoda drains the fun out of everything. There is a lot that Toyota could be doing to bring more people to the sales floor but for now, they're content peddling every SUV and Minivan they can make to the soccer moms and middle-aged yups, along with a few guys like myself who still have at least an inkling of a pulse and want to go check out some mining trails on the weekend or tow a boat around.
Yes, like Toyota, Jeep has had to abandon reliable old tech in favor of emissions-friendly new tech. I would agree that I wouldn't touch the JK with a 10-foot pole.
Actually, the tooling for the 4.0 was getting long in the tooth and instead of fixing it, Chrysler decided they wanted to shorten the nose of the next Wrangler and risk ruining their reputation with the gastly minivan motor which was just as out-dated as the 4.0, if not moreso.
Same goes for the new Tacomas. I don't like the engines in them, and they're too small, overpriced, and overrated. So what does that leave me with in the Toyota lineup? That leaves me with the FJ. Once again, NO THANK YOU. Too ugly, too slow, and if Im buying an offroad vehicle, that would be one of my last choices. Visibility is HORRIBLE.
I think the motor in the FJ was weak due to the brick design of the exterior. It actually did fine before I lifted it, even afterwards if I wasn't in a headwind (pretty rare occurrence in Wyoming). And yes they're not giving Toyotas away, but last I checked you could say the same for Jeeps.
Land Cruisers are way more expensive than Rubicon's, and not as capable (especially a TJ). And I don't think any respectable offroader gives two craps about how it does on-road. But if you're mentioning on-road, the Wranglers are always more fun and infinitely more attractive to the eye. Sales figures reflect that. Who wants to be stuck in a boring beige barge Toyota (ie Land Cruiser) when you can have the top down and doors off in a Wrangler? The on-road fun factor in a Jeep just cant be touched. Plus, when its in the garage, you can stare at the Wrangler for hours, admiring its simple, purposeful beauty. Land Cruiser invoke gag reflexes and yawns. And if you've never seen a Jeep go 250K miles without an overhaul, Id say you don't get out much. There are soooooooooo many examples (especially the 4.0L) with far more miles than that, with out so much as any overhaul work.
Sorry, a 90's LC with a lift, some decent rubber, and the ARB bumper/deer bouncer (pretty much a requirement in the Mountain West) blows anything away in the looks department. Sure, I can't take the top off. Oh well. I've seen 4.0's do 280k in a pampered Cherokee, but a Wrangler that's being dogged off-road? Maybe 200k. At least they're easy to R&R. My last FJ80 was at 270k, it would still make a cross-country trip. Current LC has 204k on it, doesn't leak or burn a drop of oil, in fact at 2k miles the oil still looks like honey.
Yes, they 4Runner is pretty capable, but.... its UGLY. Its soulless. Its a plastic fantastic box of Toyota hideousness. Yes, the Rubicons are pricey, no one is denying that. But its also more capable than any Toyota, looks better, is more fun to drive, and holds its resale just as good. Its a no brainer for me. THe only 4Runner I'd take over a new Rubicon is an old '88. Any 4Runner after that just got too heavy, too unfocused, and too overpriced/overrated.
Well, for the most part I'd have to agree. The standard 4Runner looks like a bug-butt box on wheels. The Trails Edition 4Runner has a lot of that plastic blacked out, which gives it a slimmer, cleaner look and they are quite capable off-road. They're still making lift kits, winch bumpers, etc. so there's that going for it. And let's face it, like the Wrangler the 4Runner is the lone soldier in that market. I don't think anyone is still making a body-on frame mid-sized SUV anymore save for the JK and 4Runner. We'll see what Ford pulls out with that new Bronco, but if early rumors hold true it's only going to be a re-bodied Escape.
Sure, but I think the OP, should they end up buying a Jeep, can get a good deal close to home since the dealer I mentioned is a high-volume dealer. The way that Chrysler incentives are set up, the high volume dealerships can almost give them away.
Annnnd back to the OP, I've yet to run into a dealer in AZ that was willing to match or beat what many of the out of state dealers can/will do. I don't know if it's too much overhead, greed or a combination that causes dealers here to demand more.
Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, Idaho is the best place to get a deal on a Jeep. That being said, Autonation on 17 north of town can generally come pretty close to Dave Smith, at least to where it isn't worth the trip. And just so you know, the weather is absolutely crappy right now up here in north Idaho.
Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, Idaho is the best place to get a deal on a Jeep. That being said, Autonation on 17 north of town can generally come pretty close to Dave Smith, at least to where it isn't worth the trip. And just so you know, the weather is absolutely crappy right now up here in north Idaho.
Actually Dave Smith hasn't been all that great over the last year or two, there are better deals to be had than Smith will give.
I'd suggest anyone looking take the time to peruse the forums that deal with what make/model you're looking for as you can usually find really great information on who's giving the best deal/after care on most any vehicle.
I've done this with a few of the vehicles I've been looking for and found dealers who were willing to give deep cuts to invoice and/or people who were willing to give out a manufacturer/employee discount plan code that can save you a decent %.
Deals are out there but you have to put in some work for them!
So, after all that I looked at and test drove a Wrangler Unlimited and really liked it lol
Still going to look at Toyotas, and likely buy one, just because you can drive them a lot further without having to pony up for major repairs.
I'd still stick with an older TJ with the 4.0L, but that's just me. These new JK's are so out of touch with the original CJ's, YJ's, and TJ's. I mean... leather, power windows, satellite nav... that's not a OlllllllO!!!!
Oh, don't get me started. That's pretty much the first thing I said to the salesman... "Power windows? A/C? Cruise Control? This isn't a Jeep!"
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And if you've never seen a Jeep go 250K miles without an overhaul, Id say you don't get out much. There are soooooooooo many examples (especially the 4.0L) with far more miles than that, with out so much as any overhaul work.
