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The introduction of Buddhism in Thailand would have predated the first Thai kingdom and the migration of the Dai people from southern China. Do you know much about the ethnogenesis of the Thai people? They tend to underestimate the native element, I think, as the narrative usually go that the Dai moved south displacing the original inhabitants. Yes, my grandmother is Buddhist, but I think she more practices the 'three religion' belief system that is common in China, Taiwan and Vietnam. Mahayana Buddhism often incorporates a lot of traditional Chinese beliefs.
Yep, Sri Lanka is full of relics too. In Kandy, the last royal capital, there's the 'Temple of the Tooth' which is a major pilgrimage site for Buddhists and a tourist attraction. Going inside the temple, however, one is struck by the extent that people venerate it. There were scores of people bowing to it, chanting, wailing - it really did seem they were worshipping it. The tooth itself was not on display at the time, but i've heard it looks like a crocodile tooth. Of course it is ridiculous to believe that is the actual tooth of Buddha himself, but alas, people still believe. Most of the stupas also are said to contain such relics. I think Ashoka himself built some of them, way back in the 3rd century BC, but some no longer remain. Probably the most authentic thing associated with the Buddha though was a bodi tree grown from a cutting of the bodhi tree he meditated under, in Anuradhapura. The story goes one of the Buddha's early disciples brought it to Sri Lanka in the 4th century BC. Also regarding the tooth legend, a princess is supposed to have smuggled it into her hair... I also saw a 'buddha footprint' at a temple in Anuradhapura, it was about 2 feet long, so maybe they fancied Buddha was literally a giant, not just in a metaphorical sense? lol.
I know about some of the Thai history dating back to the first Kingdom at Sukhothai and the Lanna Kingdom at Lamphun (south of Chiang Mai), but I don't know too much about the origins of much older settlers in the region other than it's thought most migrated down from China. Evidently some migrated from India.
But there had to be others from other areas. Chiang Mai is located at the eastern foothills of the Himalayas and there are plenty of hilltribers who were nomadic, some still are, who moved around all the way over to Vietnam. And there are some of the more 'primative' hunter/gatherer type tribes, such as the Mabri in the north, and another group (can't remember what they're called) in the south by Malaysia. The way of life for both of these tribes have changed. At one time, not too long ago, the Mabri (Spirits of the Yellow Leaves) were considered to be nothing more than a legend. But there they are.
About the footprint, I thought the same thing you did, that such large footprints must've been from an extremely large person, at least 50-60 feet tall. As many bodily artifacts of the Buddha that are scattered around South, SE Asia, and who knows where else, makes me wonder what the followers did after the Buddha died. Couldn't have been much left to cremate or bury. It sounds like he had to have been completely dismembered into small fragments. So you saw a tooth? Wonder where the rest of the teeth are?
I know about some of the Thai history dating back to the first Kingdom at Sukhothai and the Lanna Kingdom at Lamphun (south of Chiang Mai), but I don't know too much about the origins of much older settlers in the region other than it's thought most migrated down from China. Evidently some migrated from India.
But there had to be others from other areas. Chiang Mai is located at the eastern foothills of the Himalayas and there are plenty of hilltribers who were nomadic, some still are, who moved around all the way over to Vietnam. And there are some of the more 'primative' hunter/gatherer type tribes, such as the Mabri in the north, and another group (can't remember what they're called) in the south by Malaysia. The way of life for both of these tribes have changed. At one time, not too long ago, the Mabri (Spirits of the Yellow Leaves) were considered to be nothing more than a legend. But there they are.
About the footprint, I thought the same thing you did, that such large footprints must've been from an extremely large person, at least 50-60 feet tall. As many bodily artifacts of the Buddha that are scattered around South, SE Asia, and who knows where else, makes me wonder what the followers did after the Buddha died. Couldn't have been much left to cremate or bury. It sounds like he had to have been completely dismembered into small fragments. So you saw a tooth? Wonder where the rest of the teeth are?
Yes I know next to nothing about Thai history. All I know is that the Dai are supposed to have settled around the Chao Phraya River in the 13th century or so, with their first capital at Ayutthaya north of Bangkok. Thai vary in looks, I think they're quite varied ethnically. Central Thailand probably has more Dai/Chinese Thai, the north more hilltribes, the northeast more Lao, and some parts more Khmer. The south has the Thai Malays and those ethnic groups you talk about. The far north has a few tribes like the Mabri too...
I do wonder how much, if any, of the Buddha's body was indeed kept...I think we can safety write off the tooth legend in Kandy, but I wonder if there's any truth to any of the other legends. The relics are scattered from Kandy to Kyoto throughout the Buddhist world. I didn't actually see the tooth, but from what I've heard it doesn't even look like a human tooth! So I don't know how the people figure it belonged to the person of the buddha, but i don't know how it really looks.
Wow! This thread has turned into quite a discussion. I like it!! (though I admittedly just skimmed most of the last few pages)
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Originally Posted by NightBazaar
Hey, there you are! Where did you fly out from? For me, jet lag is harder traveling back to the US than it is going to Thailand. It depends on a person's schedule and the route. From the east coast in the US, traveling over the pole or heading east via Europe, jet lag is probably tougher. It's a long haul either way though. As I recall, you originally thought you'd have 4-5 days, but that it changed to just 3 days. I think some of the comments are meant for anyone who visits this thread and is thinking about visiting Thailand, where to go, what to do sort of thing. Whatever you do, I'm sure you'll have a good time. Keep us up to date about your adventures when you have time.
Wasn't really jet-lagged at all. My flights were rather straightforward (2 hour flight from FL to Newark, 15 hours to Hong Kong) and since I was arriving at night I pretty much stayed up for most of the flights and then slept like a baby on my first night. Worked out well.
Let's see...a brief update...the first portion of my trip (and really the longest stay in "one area") is coming to a close. Hong Kong is as awesome as I remember it. Helps that this time around I have TONS of friends and family to visit and/or came along with me. After spending 8 days there I did a very quick spin through Macau and then to Zhongshan, where I am right now, and tomorrow morning it's back to Hong Kong for one more meeting and one last night with friends there.
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Originally Posted by The Postman
Oh are your parents Malaysian? My dad is from Penang as well! I remember I used to not like it because it was dirty, but now I appreciate it's charm and the food. How did you like living there?
Yea, although they are American citizens now (actually very assimilated and have lived in the US longer than they lived in Malaysia). I love Penang although that statement is based more on nostalgia than any practical reasoning. This will be my first visit in over a decade so I'll have more to say about it after haha. And I never actually lived in Penang, but I basically spent a month there every other summer during my childhood.
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Originally Posted by The Postman
Exxy is just expensive, lol. I've been told prices in Phuket are the highest in Thailand (Patong) and from experience am inclined to agree.
Ah, gotcha. Hmm, I was under the impression Thailand would be cheaper, but yes the touristy spots are surely quite inflated.
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Originally Posted by JL
My friend has been inviting me to Taipei next summer, so i will have to really consider it. I haven't been back since my parents left during the fall of 1974. I suggest the OP stop by Taipei.
Taipei should be awesome, too. Based on my memory I'd rank it closely with Hong Kong. I'm really looking forward to that portion of my trip...while I visited Hong Kong as recently as six years ago, I haven't been to Taipei since 2001. I've had a crash course in Cantonese this past week...I'll switch gears and brush up on my Mandarin in Taiwan!
Wow! This thread has turned into quite a discussion. I like it!! (though I admittedly just skimmed most of the last few pages)
Wasn't really jet-lagged at all. My flights were rather straightforward (2 hour flight from FL to Newark, 15 hours to Hong Kong) and since I was arriving at night I pretty much stayed up for most of the flights and then slept like a baby on my first night. Worked out well.
Let's see...a brief update...the first portion of my trip (and really the longest stay in "one area") is coming to a close. Hong Kong is as awesome as I remember it. Helps that this time around I have TONS of friends and family to visit and/or came along with me. After spending 8 days there I did a very quick spin through Macau and then to Zhongshan, where I am right now, and tomorrow morning it's back to Hong Kong for one more meeting and one last night with friends there.
LOL! Glad you popped in. Just keeping the home fires on the thread burning for you. Regarding Thailand, which is about all I'm good for in SE Asia, hopefully it expands a bit more as to the wider variety Thailand has to offer, apart from the usual touristy or flashy destinations around the country, not that there's anything wrong with those. There are a lot of interesting things to see and do that are sort of off-the-beaten-path. Speaking only for myself, I've seldom found a dull moment.
You must've flown over the the pole. It usually takes us almost 11 or more hours, depending on the trade winds, just to fly from PDX on the west coast to Narita in Japan. By the time we arrive in BKK, the time is about midnight so we get some sleep and are ready to go in the morning. We don't feel much jet-lag going westward. For us jet-lag really kicks in heading back to the US. We leave BKK about 6 AM and arrive at PDX about 8 AM. Feeling sleepy just as the day is beginning. If we could arrive at PDX at night, jet-lag probably wouldn't be as much of a hassle.
Just a note about expenses in Thailand, like anywhere else in the world, costs are rising there as well. But in comparing costs and values with similar goods and services in the US, Thailand is still much cheaper. Food can be found all over that's both tasty and filling for $1-$2, even cheaper. There are more food stalls and vendors than you can shake a stick at. Check this out. I had to have an MRI scan done a number of years ago. At the time I didn't have any medical insurance, so everything was at full price. Estimates given to me by doctors was that cost would be anywhere from $1500 to $2000. That didn't include any extra prints and the radiologist's report. I had the MRI scan done in Thailand for what would equal to about $188 - excellent quality and state-of-the-art equipment. It included 2 sets of film prints and the radiologist's report. One set of prints was to give to a neurologist in BKK, and the other was to have available for use by physician's in the US. I've double-checked the prices in Thailand, and prices are only slightly higher now. It's dirt cheap.
There are places in Thailand that are astronomical in price. But unless have an income like Donald Trump, then such super luxuries are not really an option for most of us. You don't need to have a high income to enjoy rather nice comforts. Granted, a lot of things are more costly than most elsewhere around the country, especially new real estate. Out of the city though, the same kind of houses (brand new) are a fraction of what you'd pay in BKK. We're looking for a place in Chiang Mai. I've seen prices in the area of 1.5 to 2.5 million baht (US $50,000 to $83,000). These are 2 story, 3 bdrm, 2-3 bathroom houses located in nice gated communities. Where we are in the Pacific NW, we couldn't touch anything like that for less than $250,000 or more. The place we built (very modest) in the province of Saraburi cost around $18,000 total which included the house, the land and a vacant lot next to it.
There are concerts held around Thailand, usually on the grounds of wats, that are free. Many are more of the rural-type music, but some are Thai pop music styles. But they're all fun to see. People get up and dance around (usually in a big circle} with hands waving around. It's a good time for everyone, adults and children alike.
^ Jet lag isn't an issue for me travelling to Asia. Perth is the same time zone as Singapore and Malaysia, and only one hour ahead of Bangkok. We're a 6 hour flight to Bangkok. Going from Perth to LA, which was 18 hours plus a very brief (basically rushing through the airport to catch flight, due to a delay) layover in Sydney was of course kind of strange for someone who'd never done long-haul before.
George Town has now been declared a UNESCO world heritage site, it's about time. It was only on my last visit that I really appreciated it's historic value. The first British settlement in Malaya and all that.
Thailand is indeed cheaper - in general, but Patong is just really inflated, and in some ways even more expensive or on par with Malaysia. The biggest advantage of Malaysia over Thailand, I find, is most people can speak English and you don't feel harassed by touts and or constantly cheated. It's a wealthier country, so most people are just going about their daily lives. Not to say that most Thais are cheats, most are decent folk who go about their daily lives to, but just the proportion of those who rely on taking advantage or at least squeezing tourists for their livelihood is a lot lower.
^ Jet lag isn't an issue for me travelling to Asia. Perth is the same time zone as Singapore and Malaysia, and only one hour ahead of Bangkok. We're a 6 hour flight to Bangkok. Going from Perth to LA, which was 18 hours plus a very brief (basically rushing through the airport to catch flight, due to a delay) layover in Sydney was of course kind of strange for someone who'd never done long-haul before.
Yeah, that would be much easier when traveling through a one-hour time zone difference. For the Trans-Pacific flights it's a major hassle for us for the reason I previously mentioned. I do think it might be less of a problem for a flight that arrives at PDX night. No such luck for us though. Eva Airlines has flights that leave Seattle about 2 or 3 AM and arrives in BKK in the afternoon (can't remember what time). The trip back to Seattle was in the early afternoon. I've only flown on that airline once. WHat time of day did you land in LA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman
George Town has now been declared a UNESCO world heritage site, it's about time. It was only on my last visit that I really appreciated it's historic value. The first British settlement in Malaya and all that.
Never been to Malaysia. A lot of people I know have though and seem to enjoy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman
Thailand is indeed cheaper - in general, but Patong is just really inflated, and in some ways even more expensive or on par with Malaysia. The biggest advantage of Malaysia over Thailand, I find, is most people can speak English and you don't feel harassed by touts and or constantly cheated. It's a wealthier country, so most people are just going about their daily lives. Not to say that most Thais are cheats, most are decent folk who go about their daily lives to, but just the proportion of those who rely on taking advantage or at least squeezing tourists for their livelihood is a lot lower.
Never been to Phuket either, although our daughter and her husband have. I don't doubt that there's a lot of price gouging in the Patong Beach area, but that's often the case at a lot heavily touristed destinations, especially where bars and girls are the main feature. Patong is only a part of Phuket province. The areas our kids visited was pretty commercial, but clean and enjoyable. I don't think they went to Patong Beach though.
Touts can be a pretty irritating nuisance. They hang around locations where people have money to spend. I just ignore them and keep going. The whole object is to get the attention of someone who stops and starts talking with them. If you just keep going, they'll focus on someone else instead. You won't usually find touts out in the rural communities (at least I've never seen or heard of any), which is rather refreshing. Even in BKK, if you head out to areas that are away from the popular tourist spots, you don't usually find many touts. That's not where the easy money is to be found. Personally, I think what's more irritating than touts are the beggers. Touts won't usually follow after you. They tnd to stick close to the businesses they're making money from. Beggers on the other hand, if they aren't crippled, sometimes follow you around shoving a container in your face to get you to put some money in it. Although if you have several 25 or 50 satang coins (1/4 baht, 1/2 baht), giving that to a pesky begger is one way to get rid of those useless coins.
Yeah, that would be much easier when traveling through a one-hour time zone difference. For the Trans-Pacific flights it's a major hassle for us for the reason I previously mentioned. I do think it might be less of a problem for a flight that arrives at PDX night. No such luck for us though. Eva Airlines has flights that leave Seattle about 2 or 3 AM and arrives in BKK in the afternoon (can't remember what time). The trip back to Seattle was in the early afternoon. I've only flown on that airline once. WHat time of day did you land in LA?
Never been to Malaysia. A lot of people I know have though and seem to enjoy it.
Never been to Phuket either, although our daughter and her husband have. I don't doubt that there's a lot of price gouging in the Patong Beach area, but that's often the case at a lot heavily touristed destinations, especially where bars and girls are the main feature. Patong is only a part of Phuket province. The areas our kids visited was pretty commercial, but clean and enjoyable. I don't think they went to Patong Beach though.
Touts can be a pretty irritating nuisance. They hang around locations where people have money to spend. I just ignore them and keep going. The whole object is to get the attention of someone who stops and starts talking with them. If you just keep going, they'll focus on someone else instead. You won't usually find touts out in the rural communities (at least I've never seen or heard of any), which is rather refreshing. Even in BKK, if you head out to areas that are away from the popular tourist spots, you don't usually find many touts. That's not where the easy money is to be found. Personally, I think what's more irritating than touts are the beggers. Touts won't usually follow after you. They tnd to stick close to the businesses they're making money from. Beggers on the other hand, if they aren't crippled, sometimes follow you around shoving a container in your face to get you to put some money in it. Although if you have several 25 or 50 satang coins (1/4 baht, 1/2 baht), giving that to a pesky begger is one way to get rid of those useless coins.
Australia is far from Europe or North America, but at least WA is close to Asia. Melbourne is still kind of far from Bangkok, 9 hours, but not as bad as 17 hours. Cairns is only 7 hours from Osaka though!
You really need to...different to Thailand, but in some ways similar. I would recommend spending at least two weeks in peninsula Malaysia. Langkawi is nice but it's similar to beaches in Thailand. Must see places are Penang, Melaka, Taman Negara NP, the east coast...KL, Cameron Highlands, Endau Rompin, Royal Belum, Kuantan.etc. East Malaysia is excellent for nature tourism, better than Thailand imo. Indochina in general is too developed in that sense.
Yes Phuket doesn't = Patong, but most tourists seem to go there. There are much less resort-ish places on the island like Karon or Phuket Old Town, which reminds me a lot of George Town.
Yes in Bangkok I actually wandered off on my own into places that were very quiet, no touts at all. Just people going about their daily business. In fact Bangkok seemed almost deserted. This was actually after the floods in 2011 so I wonder if that had anything to do with it. I actually found touts in Vietnam and parts of China more aggressive than BKK. Sri Lanka too. Beggars also seemed more prevalent in Sri Lanka. Sometimes if a place gets fewer tourists it's worse, since there are more beggars per tourist and like 20 of them just converge upon you. I did give some money, but if you give to one a dozen will follow.
Yes in Bangkok I actually wandered off on my own into places that were very quiet, no touts at all. Just people going about their daily business. In fact Bangkok seemed almost deserted. This was actually after the floods in 2011 so I wonder if that had anything to do with it.
The 2011 flood did scare off a lot of tourists which put a dent in the economy. I think part of the problem was that the government were making all sorts of announcements that BKK would be protected by sandbags and pumps, but still got flooded anyway. Other areas like parts of the Sukhumvit Road area and Prakanong district were being warned to brace for flooding, but nothing happened. There are some reliable experts in Thailand, but for some reason, their advice was being ignored. I guess the government wanted to give people the impression that they had everything under control. Ayutthaya was flooded very bad, including the industrial parks. One company there is a major worldwide supplier of computer hard drives. It got drenched and was shut down for a while. A large area covered fields and major roads between Ayutthaya ad Saraburi, including the main highway between Saraburi and BKK. Our place in Saraburi was wet from the rain, which was normal, but no floods around there.
Anyway, the flood put a big dent in tourism at the time because people had no idea what to expect with all the conflicting "official" reports, and if conditions were that bad, there was no point going to BKK. Even people going to Thailand for business were uncertain as to what to expect. The way it all sounded, the entire city was going to be under water. The reality was that only a few areas were flooded. Don Muang Airport and Rangsit were flooded. Areas around Sapan Mai were flooded. And some areas next to the Chao Phraya River were soaked, but most of the city was fine, high and dry. A lot of food businesses and convenience stores were sold out of goods. Beer was in short supply and hard to find, except for customers who stocked up early.
A buddy of mine in the BKK area got out with his video cam to see how things looked in some of the flooded areas. Some spots were fairly deep. Taxis were almost at a standstill, but the locals are pretty creative, and some people used boats to ferry people around. People with water up to their waists pretty much took it all in stride.
However, once things finally calmed, the tourists started coming back in again. So I don't think the flood did anything to discourage visitors after it was over. What time of the year was it when you were there?
The original plan was to go to Thailand with a friend of mine, in November of 2011, but it was right during the floods, so I went to Vietnam instead. After Vietnam, however, the floods subsided so I decided to go to Thailand.
The original plan was to go to Thailand with a friend of mine, in November of 2011, but it was right during the floods, so I went to Vietnam instead. After Vietnam, however, the floods subsided so I decided to go to Thailand.
Off the top of my head, I can't remember exactly when the flood problem was pretty much over, but it was going pretty strong in October and November which wasn't the best time for visiting in 2011. Earlier, in July and August, Chiang Mai and Sukhothai had flood waters in parts of those cities. The famous Night Bazaar area of Chiang Mai was under water because its elevation isn't very high and it's not too far from the Ping River.
After the flooding was pretty much over in the BKK area, there were still low spots and swampy areas with standing water. There was a concern that mosquitoes could potentally turn into a big problem (perfect breeding places) and bring in diseases. But it didn't seem to get any worse than normal, and areas were sprayed as a means of prevention.
If you or anyone else are interested, below is a link to a collection of YouTube vids captured by a buddy of mine in BKK. They show his perspective of what he saw of the 2011 flooding in and around BKK. it was pretty bad, but life still carried on for the locals.
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