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Half of the world is US "subservient" and the rest tend to be dirt poor or subservient to some dictatorship, so it doesn't make sense to exclude countries dependent on the USA.
Taking that into account, China's growth since 1949 is nothing spectacular compared to other countries like Japan, Korea and Taiwan. And the Western world was so far ahead after WW2 that they couldn't see the same percentage rise, but in dollars, they have increased significantly more than even the richest provinces. China does look considerably better if we look at growth after 1980, but then you have to admit that the CCP held China back during the first 30 years.
The USAs democracy is flawed, it only has two parties who are heavily bought out by special interest. It is not without reason that the USA is ranked at 25 as a flawed democracy in the democracy index. Among countries that rank higher like Norway, New Zealand and Switzerland it is not like that. The people in power might be elites, but they have to serve the people. If they ignore the will of their voters, their party will lose voters. In China they can choose to be benevolent, but they don't have to.
Got to disagree. China’s growth is far more impressive, considering they encountered more obstacles. In the case of Japan, S Korea, and Taiwan, the U.S. provided much assistance. It's easier to develop when you get unbridled access to the world's largest economy (at one point responsible for 50% of world GDP) and you don't have to invest much if any in military defense, because of U.S. protection. A course this came with a cost as Japan found out via the Plaza accords. China on the other hand had to develop with hostile or less friendly countries or forces along its border. They also had to get billions of people on one accord. Not saying I'm the biggest fan of the CCP, but you must give credit where credit is due. They managed to rapidly grow their economy lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, all while staving off outside influence and coercion. Look at the other countries that were projected to be in China’s position at the start of the 2000s.
Brazil - Economy is going nowhere. Can't seem to get a leader to put them on the right path.
India - A country whose citizens leave it in droves to provide brain power to the West because the local economy is lacking.
Up until recent years people praised China progress. Now that their progress threatens to overtake the U.S., “they’re an evil empire that is trying to take over the world, hopefully their debt will bankrupt them.” Funny how these things change based upon insecurities. India better be careful. If they can finally become a powerhouse like many people project, it will not take long before Western nations turn them into the new bad guy.
Got to disagree. China’s growth is far more impressive, considering they encountered more obstacles. In the case of Japan, S Korea, and Taiwan, the U.S. provided much assistance. It's easier to develop when you get unbridled access to the world's largest economy (at one point responsible for 50% of world GDP) and you don't have to invest much if any in military defense, because of U.S. protection. A course this came with a cost as Japan found out via the Plaza accords. China on the other hand had to develop with hostile or less friendly countries or forces along its border. They also had to get billions of people on one accord. Not saying I'm the biggest fan of the CCP, but you must give credit where credit is due. They managed to rapidly grow their economy lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, all while staving off outside influence and coercion. Look at the other countries that were projected to be in China’s position at the start of the 2000s.
Brazil - Economy is going nowhere. Can't seem to get a leader to put them on the right path.
India - A country whose citizens leave it in droves to provide brain power to the West because the local economy is lacking.
Up until recent years people praised China progress. Now that their progress threatens to overtake the U.S., “they’re an evil empire that is trying to take over the world, hopefully their debt will bankrupt them.” Funny how these things change based upon insecurities. India better be careful. If they can finally become a powerhouse like many people project, it will not take long before Western nations turn them into the new bad guy.
Yes, or remember the massive Japan-bashing of the 80's when Japan was booming.
The Global South should unite, then it would be so huge and powerful that nobody could harm and oppress them.
In the USA anyway.
Truman was a shoe salesman.
Eisenhower was a army general.
Kennedy came from a wealty family.
Johnson was a school teacher.
Nixon was a flunky.
Ford was, well Ford.
Carter was a peanut farmer.
Reagan was a movie star.
Bush 1 was the CIA director.
Clinton was, well Clinton.
Bush 2 was a basebal owner.
Obama was a social worker.
Trump was a bankrupt landlord.
it doesn't matter where they came from, the biggest problem is the one you know who in that list that has absolute ZERO public service record before taking office. Even I am more qualify as I have worked for the federal government for 6 months
Many modern Chinese leaders of the PRC were engineers. Jiang Ze Min, Hu Jin Tao, and Xi Jin Ping were all engineers. One could argue that the current state in Mainland China does not allow for lawyers, businessmen, and diplomats to become heads of state but more likely the knowledge, training, and experience of engineers are well liked among the Chinese and they look to engineers with their acumen for realizing, tackling and solving problems to lead the nation. I believe the US has only had two presidents trained in engineering, Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter. We've had way more lawyers and businessmen become presidents than engineers and natural scientists. China just has an altogether very different political mindset in doing things.
Got to disagree. China’s growth is far more impressive, considering they encountered more obstacles. In the case of Japan, S Korea, and Taiwan, the U.S. provided much assistance. It's easier to develop when you get unbridled access to the world's largest economy (at one point responsible for 50% of world GDP) and you don't have to invest much if any in military defense, because of U.S. protection. A course this came with a cost as Japan found out via the Plaza accord
No one was trying to invade China after WW2, and the real cause of the stagnation was policies like Great Leap Forward and the culture revolution. It is quite hard to grow, or even protect yourself from invaders, if you are busy imprisoning and killing anyone who is from the wrong family.
And even it was true, what prevented China from aligning itself with the US so that it also can get assistance? The costs that you mention seems like nothing compared to having a much weaker economy. You are the one claiming that any country who align themselves with the US will get much higher growth rates.
Quote:
Not saying I'm the biggest fan of the CCP, but you must give credit where credit is due. They managed to rapidly grow their economy lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, all while staving off outside influence and coercion. Look at the other countries that were projected to be in China’s position at the start of the 2000s.
Brazil - Economy is going nowhere. Can't seem to get a leader to put them on the right path.
India - A country whose citizens leave it in droves to provide brain power to the West because the local economy is lacking.
It is not that I am not giving China credit, I am just telling you that it can be divided into two periods.
1949 - 1980: China was dysfunctional and poor. It's performance was among the worst in the world and was clearly beaten by Brazil. who has much larger structural problems than the wrong leader. For instance, there is a massive crime problem and slum problem that will prevent growth under any leader.
1980 - 2020: China reformed and achieved very high growth rates.
If you put those periods together, then China average growth rate is not that impressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major
Up until recent years people praised China progress. Now that their progress threatens to overtake the U.S., “they’re an evil empire that is trying to take over the world, hopefully their debt will bankrupt them.” Funny how these things change based upon insecurities. India better be careful. If they can finally become a powerhouse like many people project, it will not take long before Western nations turn them into the new bad guy.
China is nowhere near overtaking the USA. The USA could crush Huawei with simple legislation, and China couldn't even punish Australia.
No one was trying to invade China after WW2, and the real cause of the stagnation was policies like Great Leap Forward and the culture revolution. It is quite hard to grow, or even protect yourself from invaders, if you are busy imprisoning and killing anyone who is from the wrong family.
And even it was true, what prevented China from aligning itself with the US so that it also can get assistance? The costs that you mention seems like nothing compared to having a much weaker economy. You are the one claiming that any country who align themselves with the US will get much higher growth rates.
It is not that I am not giving China credit, I am just telling you that it can be divided into two periods.
1949 - 1980: China was dysfunctional and poor. It's performance was among the worst in the world and was clearly beaten by Brazil. who has much larger structural problems than the wrong leader. For instance, there is a massive crime problem and slum problem that will prevent growth under any leader.
1980 - 2020: China reformed and achieved very high growth rates.
If you put those periods together, then China average growth rate is not that impressive.
China is nowhere near overtaking the USA. The USA could crush Huawei with simple legislation, and China couldn't even punish Australia.
you forgot the war of the US fought in korea. China is not safe and must put all resource on military until after they get the atomic bomb
Many modern Chinese leaders of the PRC were engineers. Jiang Ze Min, Hu Jin Tao, and Xi Jin Ping were all engineers. One could argue that the current state in Mainland China does not allow for lawyers, businessmen, and diplomats to become heads of state but more likely the knowledge, training, and experience of engineers are well liked among the Chinese and they look to engineers with their acumen for realizing, tackling and solving problems to lead the nation. I believe the US has only had two presidents trained in engineering, Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter. We've had way more lawyers and businessmen become presidents than engineers and natural scientists. China just has an altogether very different political mindset in doing things.
no, they are polititians. Jiang started his work as underground CCP in shanghai during the both wars.
the other two has taken many positions before getting into the commitee. I don't know about businessmen, but lawyers and diplomats are fair game. You didn't know that Xi sort of served as a deploymat during his time in the US?
ok, so you won't blame germany when you guys got occupied right? higher population actually makes a nation weaker and thougher to govern. obviously the blame goes both ways, that's why the qing dynasty is long gone. And guess who led china back on top like they have been more than 90% of the time?
btw the viking thing is just for fun, just to show you that your civilization has a long way to go before trying to exporting the so call "democracy" system to another civilization that has been practicing "people rule" a long before any of the western civilization
Germany had at that time 25x the population of Norway and had direct access to Norway. And even then, Norway resisted for two months, kept doing anti-German activity and kept society functional.
China was dealing with an enemy that had to travel thousands of miles by ship and had a significant smaller population. China should have been able to defend itself.
And the Viking area was 1000 years ago, 900 years before Norway implemented full democracy. The fact that you think that is a good example, just tell me that you have lost your mind.
Also, China is ruled by the elites not the people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maomao
you forgot the war of the US fought in korea. China is not safe and must put all resource on military until after they get the atomic bomb
Is Korea inside China?
And how would the atomic bomb help China in the Korean War? The UN forces didn't expect that China would get involved so they would have repelled North Korea's attack and pushed into North Korea anyway.
No one was trying to invade China after WW2, and the real cause of the stagnation was policies like Great Leap Forward and the culture revolution. It is quite hard to grow, or even protect yourself from invaders, if you are busy imprisoning and killing anyone who is from the wrong family.
And even it was true, what prevented China from aligning itself with the US so that it also can get assistance? The costs that you mention seems like nothing compared to having a much weaker economy. You are the one claiming that any country who align themselves with the US will get much higher growth rates.
It is not that I am not giving China credit, I am just telling you that it can be divided into two periods.
1949 - 1980: China was dysfunctional and poor. It's performance was among the worst in the world and was clearly beaten by Brazil. who has much larger structural problems than the wrong leader. For instance, there is a massive crime problem and slum problem that will prevent growth under any leader.
1980 - 2020: China reformed and achieved very high growth rates.
If you put those periods together, then China average growth rate is not that impressive.
China is nowhere near overtaking the USA. The USA could crush Huawei with simple legislation, and China couldn't even punish Australia.
I'm arguing being aligned with the U.S. makes growth and development easier. The U.S. is a wealthy country, has tremendous global influence, and controls the world’s economic plumbing (the U.S. Dollar). After the Korean War armistice, the S Korean government was also a dictatorship. They persecuted enemies and their country was poor. However, being considered an ally of the U.S., their government atrocities were ignored and/or downplayed in the name of combatting the evil communist. The government was also provided an insane amount of economic aid and investment. The biggest help came from the U.S. restraining the Japanese economy growth via the Plaza Accords, allowing a global niche for cheaper electronics of which the Koreans specialized. Not trying to take anything away from S. Korea, it still takes good leadership to put all the pieces of the puzzle together, but it can’t be ignored their development curve was shortened by being allies with the U.S. Same with the other Asian tigers.
Stop moving the goal post of achievement. The US during the 50s was around 50% of the world's GDP. Now it's at 20% - 25%. Doesn’t make the U.S. less impressive. It’s like me going up to Orpah and saying, “well you were poor when you were 18, so your $3.1 billion net worth doesn’t mean much now.”
I know many posters refuse acknowledge that China's GDP is posed to overtake the U.S. in 10 - 15 years. They are only operating at 60% - 70% of their economic potential. I understand there is more to power than economics, but they have made tremendous strides in science, military, and becoming a force in foreign affairs. If we could crush Huawei why haven’t we done so already? Make no mistake if the U.S. could do so without harming itself it would have done so by now. If China wasn’t becoming more powerful and set to overtake the U.S. in many measures, then there wouldn’t be such an effort to contain or limit their growth.
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