Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So, while I see the need to have organized groups of Atheists to press certain legal matters, I don't necessarily feel comfortable around a whole plethora of Atheists wishing to break bread with one another over their own ideas. Yes, it's a lot more comforting to be around people who think the exact same as you and it's a lot easier to navigate within those social confines. But, I don't think it offers an objectionable enough opinion for people to remain grounded for an extended period of time.
I think most organized groups of non-theists (of all stripes) tend to be based around social and political activism. There are groups that gather just to have some like-minded company, which can certainly be welcome when you are in "hostile" territory. I would have been thrilled to meet some fellow non-theists when I lived in TN, just because it was such a minefield trying to avoid damaging relationships with the devout. It means you can let your hair down once in a while, and I can understand why that could be important to some people.
For the most part, though, it is like herding cats (as mentioned above). The only thing we are guaranteed to have in common is disbelief in a deity, which is pretty difficult to form a cohesive group around.
So, while I see the need to have organized groups of Atheists to press certain legal matters, I don't necessarily feel comfortable around a whole plethora of Atheists wishing to break bread with one another over their own ideas. Yes, it's a lot more comforting to be around people who think the exact same as you and it's a lot easier to navigate within those social confines. But, I don't think it offers an objectionable enough opinion for people to remain grounded for an extended period of time.
+1
It's true that we are social animals and tend to seek common cause and congregate around ideas. But I think the human race as a whole needs to evolve in this respect somewhat. Particularly for those of us who came out of theism, there's a tendency to want external group validation for our ideas and opinions, rather than take full responsibility for our own ideas. There's also a tendency to look for a single, objective, given truth, that's presumably "out there" and discoverable and verifiable. It's a mistake to assume that [fill in your particular religious tribe / persuasion here] was simply in error and that there is some other tribe / persuasion that is the "correct" one. I believe that some have simply made substitute gods out of intellect, reason, and empiricism. As great as those things are, it would be foolish to presume that they represent some ultimate truth and that we are either individually or as a race, to a place yet where we even have the mental and emotional and sensory equipment to properly apprehend anything like ultimate truth.
In short, what is often lacking in what I termed "big 'A' Atheism" is humility and openness to new information and perspectives. Atheism can be just as strident, impertinent, arrogant and close-minded as any religion. The good news is, it needn't be, whereas inherently, narrow thinking and defensive circling of the wagons to protect against "error" is pretty much a requirement for religious thought-systems, being, as they are, all based on having the "correct" version of the "Truth". Atheism does not need to be "right" or prove everyone else "wrong".
Good thoughts indeed! No official "Atheism". Sorry!
NOTE: (my highlighting in blue).
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo
I think the answer is yes and no.
I do believe that organized atheism is appearing more, however this is certainly not the first time, even just in America. Non-theistic belief has a long history.
As far as church-like, I tend to think no more that a hobbyist group, or a youth organization. There is no heirerachy or doctrine. There are no rituals or no prescribed services.
Generally, they are groups of likeminded people who are trying to build a social support network for themselves, express solidarity with each other, and use their collective voice to influence public perception and policy. More of a combination social club and political action network. NoCapo
Yep. If some group attempts to gather funds to offset possible publicity or meeting expenses, so what? We also support the Girl Scouts by paying for their cookies, though there is some good evidence that those ARE a religion....
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
That does address a valuable point - isn't a movement or organisation which exists solely to oppose something with nothing to offer itself, flawed at the start?
But, if atheism is just part of a rational worldview, just that part which is considering religious claims, then it avoids all those problems, or rather, we see that the problem didn't really exist. It only looked like it because we thought of atheism out of its context. That made problems for it in considering the supernatural, unreligious concepts of gods and - as said, the lack of any positive agenda.
The rationalist worldview is already in place, working away quietly and providing all the things we use and rely on daily while the vociferous theists shout the odds about their religions and claim all the credit for their imaginary gods.
We atheists should see that we are rationalists like other rationalists and we all ought to be pulling for a rational world where unproven claims are not given credence but critical study and kids are not taught to believe a particular religion but how to reason. Atheism would then not need to be a particular movement but just the default of not believing in god - claims.
I'd also say that whenever a similar mindset and principled paradigm evolves, there will be those who want to take advantage of it by forming some "official" group. This is, of course, the entire basis for the manipulation & "handling" of the human psyche that is religion.
As to the comments by 007.5;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna
Oh my frickin' god, can you not read?
You obviously don't have a clue so I did you the favour of actually posting the definition of church.
"Thanks Djuna for enlightening me" should have been your response.
Indeed, but realize, Djuna, that many brighter minded fundamentalist types have seen the light, and it is that their decision to crowd around in a like-minded flock is indeed a failure of their individuality and in their personal ability to think critically.
This is entirely why they continue to try to "peg" atheism, and even "Atheism", as also being a "religion", as such a failed system as their own. That indeed, there is a growing realization that "Religion" per se is nowadays considered an EPIC FAIL by the intellectualists, a thoroughly "culty" process unable to to think things through.
I've focused some of GST's insights below, since they bear repeating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
√ I think organized Atheism has to tote a fine line between being a principled movement and gathering of people to advance a frame of thought and becoming "preachy."
√ ...if you're talking about a group of people who get together and all pat each other on the back for being good fellow Atheists then I find that a bit uncomfortable. I like to have an objectionable opinion that makes me feel uncomfortable from time to time. It allows one to truly examine things with a frame of thought that is not always reinforced with positive affirmations.
√ Even if I wholeheartedly and vehemently disagree with something, I think it's good to be around those ideas if for no other reason than to keep oneself grounded.
√ One of the biggest problems I think religion has is that it doesn't allow itself an objectionable opinion. Every single Sunday, churches bring people in from miles around so they can all sit around and agree on a bunch of stuff spewed from the mouth of a single orator. Then, in one of the most communal bonding moments in human nature, they usually get up and eat donuts or go out to breakfast or lunch together.
√ The whole process is a reaffirmation of beliefs without any objectionable criticism.
√ ...it's a lot more comforting to be around people who think the exact same as you and it's a lot easier to navigate within those social confines. But, I don't think it offers an objectionable enough opinion for people to remain grounded for an extended period of time.
Truth be known, the typical actions of the happy congregation only exists to cement their commonality, in both their middle-aged, and certainly geriatric, mind sets to NEVER "rock the boat!". Behaviors like questioning their faith or the mandates of their particular denomination almost always gets 'em kicked out, with an admonishment to "take your disruptive ideas down the street to the Libertarian or Universalist church with those ideas! Out, damned spot!"
In other words, they are very guilty of a sort of philosophical eugenics, to be sure, a word they so often sneeringly try to paste onto the atheist mindset, whatever that is.
Else, if they allowed such freedom of though and debate, philosophical boat-swamping would be the uncomfortable consequence, and heck; they are all going to have to fight for the lifejackets when Death's Head enters the room anyhow! So why hurry that process? it's coming all too soon anyhow!
Then? Women and children first? Nope: git your's before the other guy grabs it!
Agendas, material handouts and collection of dues does not make it anything even resembling church-like. All kinds of groups have those activities.
None of those fit the definition of church;
-a building for public Christian worship
-the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom.
-any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church.
-that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc.
You're grasping at invisible straws trying to make any connection whatsoever.
Are you attempting to equate *all* religion with Christianity here? What about Hinduism or Islam? They have all the trappings of religion with Christendom.
Heres a few trappings that come to mind...besides, the U.S. Government recognizes atheistic Secular Humanism as an organized Religion :
1. It is highly organized thruout this nation. There are many large
Atheist Organizations that would love a greater constituency.
Many? There are certainly many secular organizations, but not all of these are atheist organizations. Aside from that there are many different beliefs represented even within one organization. The only thing atheists have in common is non-belief in a god or gods. I don't suppose you believe in Shiva or Vishnu. Atheists belief in one less god than you do.
2. There are even Atheist Camps thruout the nation with a well
publicized large one in Ohio.
Camp Quest is the only atheist camp for kids that I know of actually. It came about to give children a chance to have camp experiences while not being bombarded with religion. It is actually held on some Christian campuses in Texas, so the symbols of Christianity can surround our kids even in an *atheist* camp. There are only 11 locations in the US, btw.
3. They meet regularly to discuss local and national agendas which
include the ridiculing of Theists and Christians.
No, in general, no meetings I have attended include *ridiculing* Theists and Christians. The local and national agendas have to do with keeping religion out of our government and pseudo-science out of our schools
4. The Atheist Organizations collect dues regularly just like Churches
collect free will offerings on a Sunday to cover overhead, expenses,
activities, and material distribution.
Of course, any organization collects dues for expenses or accepts donations if they are non-profit. My Friends of the Library Group has dues. That does not make it a church.
5. They have very large national Conferences yearly just like Church
Denominations do. A very large one was held last year in Colorado.
There was a large free-thought convention in Houston, just a few weeks ago. So what?
6. There are active Internet Atheist NG's to educate followers in the
sheer impossibility of matter and naturalism accounting for the many
many complex designs and engineering of our Universe, Solar System,
Planet, Human Bodys, DNA, et al...
Newgroups are created on all kinds of subjects, that does not mean they are a religion. There are newsgroups about parenting, about fashion, about movies and tv too.
7. They want macro evolution theories taught as 'scientific fact' in
public schools without ANY time for scientific Creationism/ I.D.
As someone else already said, Scientific Creationism is an oxymoron. Real science is testable by falsifying the hypothesis and then seeing what would happen. You cannot falsify god or test for his existence.
Honestly, there is little similarity to religion and churches in the atheist movement, even in the atheist organizations.
Unless something is being worshipped I personally don't consider it a church or religion. Maybe a philosophy or interest but beyond that I don't see it.
Are you attempting to equate *all* religion with Christianity here? What about Hinduism or Islam? They have all the trappings of religion with Christendom.
I was purely using 'church' in reference to Christendom only because that's the OPs belief system.
Muslims have mosques, Hindus have temples, so it was quite specific.
I was purely using 'church' in reference to Christendom only because that's the OPs belief system.
Muslims have mosques, Hindus have temples, so it was quite specific.
Perhaps the bottom line is that, while it is very arguable that atheism becoming organized makes it any more like a religion than a cookery club, even if it was not so arguable, the main, sole and significant difference is that it does not and cannot believe in unproven entities without any sound evidential support. That is why it will never become anything like a religion.
Ive noticed that there are a few camps around the country for atheist children in particular, in addition to national conferences and seminars for atheistic Secular Humanists ; this in addition to such entities as American Atheist Association and others, who offer regularly scheduled local meetings with agendas , material handouts, and collection of dues.
Is atheism becoming rather church-like , and what do you foresee for the future ? Please discuss. Thanks.
Atheism isn't a movement, at least not until people of like mind band together and start associating with each other on the basis of their mutual beliefs, then try to spread their influence and agenda.
So yea, it's going that way, and it REALLY shouldn't. Join the Church of Muscle Cars, the Holy Order of the Fly Casters or the Temple of Fine Beverages, but never, ever the Church of Atheism. That would defeat the point of Atheism itself!
Ive noticed that there are a few camps around the country for atheist children in particular, in addition to national conferences and seminars for atheistic Secular Humanists ; this in addition to such entities as American Atheist Association and others, who offer regularly scheduled local meetings with agendas , material handouts, and collection of dues.
Is atheism becoming rather church-like , and what do you foresee for the future ? Please discuss. Thanks.
No. End of discussion.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Good thoughts indeed! No official "Atheism". Sorry!
