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looking4answers12: This thread isn't all about you and your posts. Threads have a tendency to metamorphose and go off on (hopefully) related matters. I mean no disrespect, but relax.
looking4answers12: This thread isn't all about you and your posts. Threads have a tendency to metamorphose and go off on (hopefully) related matters. I mean no disrespect, but relax.
Fair enuf. Just keep in mind, it's not just me continuing the convo. Since it is bothering more than just the person who I have been replying back to, I will back off here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I was in a museum with some friends today and I made a slightly offensive remark about religion under my breath to them. Both are them are not religious. It was just in fun.
What followed was an hour long debate over whether or not I should respect religion.
I say nah, I mean, it doesn't warrant respect in my opinion because religious institutions don't respect me or other's rights. Gay rights, women's rights, etc. Not to mention if religion is some special class that's off limits from offensive jokes isn't that giving them an unwarranted power?
They told me religious people would be more likely to listen if I play nice, but then immediately said I'm not ever going to change anyone's mind. So why be nice then? I try to explain things in scientific ways and they throw out the faith card and that's when I say, "You're just silly" and walk off.
What do you guys think? Nice? Or let em have it until they back off a bit?
Now I don't go out in the streets yelling "God's not real!" everyday, nor do I ever start an argument or make an offensive comment towards religious friends, but when a debate does ensue I pull out all the stops.
Be nice to nice people, religious or not.
Hitchens said it beautifully, as usual, on how to deal with the religious.
Fair enuf. Just keep in mind, it's not just me continuing the convo. Since it is bothering more than just the person who I have been replying back to, I will back off here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
You needn't do that. It isn't what I wanted...Stick around! I said I meant no disrespect.
You needn't do that. It isn't what I wanted...Stick around! I said I meant no disrespect.
I didn't think there was any disrespect. I thought you were just tired of the back and forth nonsense! I can see where it might have seemed like we hijacked the thead a bit. There does come point sometimes where people really do need to agree to disagree, right?
I'm a little confused as to whether this thread is about respecting religious beliefs or about being kind and polite to individuals who are religious.
I thought it was more a question of whether the people should be treated kindly, whereas some people interpret the thread as asking whether the beliefs should be respected.
If it's just about the beliefs, I would say that a person is not obliged to respect the beliefs if they stronly disagree with or dislike them.
If it's about respecting religious people as individuals, then I say, give them the same respect they give you. If they are acting kindly and politely, someone should behave the same way towards them.
That's all it boils down to, in my view - if someone is nice to you, then I think you should be nice to them. Whether or not they happen to be religious should have nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714
Many religious beliefs are about disrespect, to gays, women, entire groups of people. Why should we be tolerant of intolerance just because it comes wrapped in a religious package?
You raise a good issue and you are correct that there are religious beliefs that are intolerant, and you should not be expected to harbour respect for those beliefs.
However, there is so much diversity amongst even individual religions that no one adherent of any one faith is likely going to have the exact same views as another. For example, there are some Christians who think homosexuality is a sin and that homosexuals are immoral. There are other Christians who don't believe such and are accepting of homosexuals. Then there are some Christians who are homosexual themselves. Three significant differences, all over just one issue.
Not all people who consider themselves a follower of any one faith believe in everything that that faith espouses or everything their text teaches. Some do, some don't. Therefore, you will find some individual religious people who are very open-minded and accepting of women, homosexuality, etc, even though the faith they follow may state some intolerance.
Because of all these differences in just a single religion alone, I don't think a person should jump to conclusions about a religious person simply because they follow their particular faith. If one is talking to a Christian, for instance, it would be unfair to assume, without evidence, that he is a homosexual-hating bigot. He may well be a Christian who doesn't feel that way at all. People should not instantly be judged in a certain way because they are a religious person, they should only be judged negatively if their actions or words demonstrate bigotry or intolerance. But they should not automatically be assumed to be bigoted or intolerant.
1. You think religious people are not nice so it is OK to join them to the level you accuse them of, correct?
2. You stereotype them. So it is OK to treat all religious people with disdain even if they are nice to you, correct?
3. It seems you closed your mind so no need to listen to what they have to say, correct?
4. You think that if someone simply explains his views and it based on faith, no need to be polite, correct?
Now, should you be nice to religious folks? My answer is this. The people that are nice to you regardless whether they are religious or not deserve the same treatment. Even in some cases people that are not nice to you whether they are religious or not is a good advice to reply with kindness. Very often that works also. It is up to you if you decide to be a jerk or not. YOU have control on that, no one else. In other words it is up whether you can rise to an ocasion or not. Take care.
I guess I should have worded my post differently because everyone seems to be taking it the wrong way.
I am SUPER NICE and polite to every single person I come into contact with, religious or not. It's when a debate starts that people tell me I'm being offensive when I explain why I don't think god can exist. Yes, I do get frustrated when they throw out the faith card because that's the equivalent of saying Santa Claus is real because I think so, no questions asked.
I do not stereotype all religious people. I know many religious people who are pro-choice, support gay rights, etc.
I think the "Polite but not silent" is a good mantra.
Also, to reiterate, I wouldn't even care to debunk religion if it didn't hold such a powerful position in our society and threaten the rights of others.
Many religious beliefs are about disrespect, to gays, women, entire groups of people. Why should we be tolerant of intolerance just because it comes wrapped in a religious package?
Second, how would anyone know about these religious beliefs if people are not spouting off about them? Because I can guarantee you as an atheist I NEVER start a conversation about religion or beliefs. Maybe some do, but that is obviously the minority compared to the number of believers who feel they should be allowed to "share" their beliefs without being subjected to mine.
I believe in many cases are not about disrespect to gays, women, entire groups of people actually a difference of opinions. Even though I do agree with gay marriage if someone else disgrees for whatever reason, not only religious, does not mean they want to be disrespectful. To lump views as being disrespectul often is a way to demonize a different of opinion.
Example: If some religious person simply tells me he does not agree because he thinks it is a sin, I have no problem with that. He is free to believe whatever he wants. If he goes out there and tries to get people to do something to gays or women, then I am against that.
Now, if someone goes and votes because he does not agree with gay marriage, I do see that person exercising his right to vote based on his beliefs. I will see my vote countering his vote. Just as you may vote based on what you think is right I see them doing the same.
There is nothing wrong with people expressing his beliefs whatever they are. How do people know you are atheist? Because I am sure you state that. What is wrong if someone express if they are theists? Nothing wrong with that either.
People all the time express their views on all kinds of areas in life from politics, animal rights, the environment, atheism, education, economy, etc. Why is it that doing the very same thing about religions is anathema?
Also, what is wrong in starting a conversation on religion? Nothing. You just dislike it. If someone starts a converstaion about atheism, do you take offense? Do you tell that person to stop talking about atheism? I really doubt you do.
Someone starts to talk about religion, I either leave the conversation, express my views, or state I do no care to discuss the issue.
If that person insist in pushing his views on me, then, of course I will take the level to a higher point of acertiveness. No biggie.
In some ways I see your comments similar to sexual harassment. If the lady likes the guy she will most likely welcome a comment or flirty approach. However, the same comment or flirty approach can be called sexual harassment because it is unwelcome since probably the lady does not like the guy.
I see people in life that will be polite and courteous to many people out there when they express a view, opinion, etc. even if they are not congruent with the recepient. However, the very same act from a religious guy "Oh no! God! Oh no God!" and go into emotional convulsions.
The bottom line? Nothing wrong with people expressing their religioius beliefs. How they do so is what makes the difference and how much disdain they (you as you come across with me) they may have towards those that are religious. Take care.
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I said I meant no disrespect.
