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ALL the atheistic "blather" is cover for the inability and unwillingness to confront the existence of this central issue of human experience that has no counterpart or precursor in the material world.They attack the stupid and absurd religious beliefs because they are easy to dismiss. They dodge the central issue as if it is "inconsequential." The throw away excuse is "We don't know" . . . but it is probably the same "emergence" phenomenon we see in the material world (euphemism for we observe it to come into existence but have no clue how or why it came to be).
It is just as pointless to discuss this with them as they feel it is to discuss the myriad religious nonsense with the fundies. Both camps seem to want to remain deliberately ignorant and obtuse with regard to the real central issues that confront them.
Mystic, the atheists are not saying "We don't know" to everything. That's what you're trying to put on us. There are scientific explanations for the origins of intelligence, reasoning abilities and personality in humans. These qualities evolved in countless animal species over hundreds of millions of years and have come down to humans through that process of evolution. Mutations in DNA cause changes in the brain which affect these qualities. These are the facts which fundamentalist theists simply ignore or don't want to discuss rationally (which is exactly what 007.5 has been doing to all of his responses).
There is no need to hypothesize a God to explain any of this. It's actually pretty ridiculous to do so.
Last edited by BigCityDreamer; 05-26-2012 at 11:47 AM..
ALL the atheistic "blather" is cover for the inability and unwillingness to confront the existence of this central issue of human experience that has no counterpart or precursor in the material world.They attack the stupid and absurd religious beliefs because they are easy to dismiss. They dodge the central issue as if it is "inconsequential." The throw away excuse is "We don't know" . . . but it is probably the same "emergence" phenomenon we see in the material world (euphemism for we observe it to come into existence but have no clue how or why it came to be).
It is just as pointless to discuss this with them as they feel it is to discuss the myriad religious nonsense with the fundies. Both camps seem to want to remain deliberately ignorant and obtuse with regard to the real central issues that confront them.
Let's hope, Mystic, that 007.25 at least will buy your dismissal of the legitimate 'we don't know..but that doesn't mean ID' plus 'no evidence for things working without the hand of God in it..' line.
Mystic, the atheists are not saying "We don't know" to everything. That's what you're trying to put on us.
"Central issue" . . is NOT synonymous with "everything." You still want to evolve or emerge our unique capabilities that are completely alien to material objects without any conceivable precursor for their existence whatsoever in a dead material void. I realize that may be too philosophically remote for your preferred pragmatic world view.
Quote:
There are scientific explanations for the origins of intelligence, reasoning abilities and personality in humans. These qualities evolved in countless animal species over hundreds of millions of years and have come down to humans through that process of evolution. Mutations in DNA cause changes in the brain which affect these qualities. These are the facts which fundamentalist theists simply ignore or don't want to discuss rationally (which is exactly what 007.5 has been doing to all of his responses).
There is no need to hypothesize a God to explain any of this. It's actually pretty ridiculous to do so.
Sorry but your superficial explanations PRESUME origins (life, consciousness, etc.) NOT explained by a completely dead materialistic void. These are the facts which fundamentalist atheists simply ignore or don't want to discuss rationally (which is exactly what most of you have been doing).
You NEVER get anything personal or with intellect from a materialistic universe . And this is the atheist worldview . You know as well as i do that our personal, intellect, logic, reason, love, immense order, razor edge precision of our Physics Constants/Life enabling constants...could only come from a willful Mind and ability at work. If not, then show how its possible without a personal willing it .
Just checking the thread...well, threatens to go off topic, but I started so I'll finish.
In logical, evidential fact, I do NOT know that all this 'complexity/order' comes from a planning creative mind, which is what I think you saying here (correct me if you are saying something else.) I do not know and nobody knows. I do not se any compelling evidence that all this order cannot have come about through physical processes just as our complex animal and plant kingdon evidently came about from very simple beginnings and also through natural processes without any help from a 'mind' that I have seen demonstrated.
(By golly, I have to admit the evolution debate kicks in pretty darn soon)
You may put this down to my denial to admit the 'obvious' (You wouldn't be the first ) but I'd like to see what evidence you have to compel me from the 'something from nothing' is just as likely without a 'cosmic mind' theory to it cannot have come about without a 'willful Mind' as you put it.
P.s. Remember, you are trying to convince me that this mind exists, not me trying to convince you that it doesn't. I am happy to opt for 'Nobody knows'.
Just checking the thread...well, threatens to go off topic, but I started so I'll finish.
In logical, evidential fact, I do NOT know that all this 'complexity/order' comes from a planning creative mind, which is what I think you saying here (correct me if you are saying something else.) I do not know and nobody knows. I do not se any compelling evidence that all this order cannot have come about through physical processes just as our complex animal and plant kingdon evidently came about from very simple beginnings and also through natural processes without any help from a 'mind' that I have seen demonstrated.
(By golly, I have to admit the evolution debate kicks in pretty darn soon)
You may put this down to my denial to admit the 'obvious' (You wouldn't be the first ) but I'd like to see what evidence you have to compel me from the 'something from nothing' is just as likely without a 'cosmic mind' theory to it cannot have come about without a 'willful Mind' as you put it.
P.s. Remember, you are trying to convince me that this mind exists, not me trying to convince you that it doesn't. I am happy to opt for 'Nobody knows'.
Umm no, im not trying to 'convince' you . If you want to pretend that our Cosmos isnt on a razors edge as far as precision goes or that non materials things like abstract thinking, logic, reason, love, etc...can originate from rocks, dirt, planets a very big explosion on a stellar evolution scale ...then you are welcome to that fallacy . Such is the beauty of freewill choice. The evidence of external intelligence is all around...from the specific instructions occuring in the DNA cell , to the migrational habit of the 4th generation (only) Monarch Butterfly, to the extreme physics constants needed for earth to be here such as the Cosmological Constant anthropic having a critical tolerance leeway of 150 decimal places with over 140 other scientifically defined Constants of near equal precision..., the human brain which top world scientists cant begin to duplicate or understand its workings (yet blind random chances could make it) , along with many other obvious examples.
It takes a deliberate desire to jettison a personal theistic Creator from the creation we enjoy...and frankly, no one has enough faith to truly hold to an atheist worldview OR...to blow it off to 'nobody knows' .
Whether you want to pursue this issue or not is up to you, but, if you do the best inexpensive book ive ever come across for compelling scientific evidence for a personal theistic Creator is the book called 'Creation' by Dr. Grant Jeffries available on www.amazon.com for $.01 good used copy plus shipping. Theres no good excuse not to get a copy , at least for the sincere Investigator.
To go back to the original question of respecting beliefs, I find one issue that I find particularly insulting and disrespectful has cropped up several times, and for whatever reason it is generally with Christians.
I don't have a problem with someone believing I am wrong, believing I am holding an illogical belief, or that I am interpreting evidence incorrectly. What really bothers me are statements like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
It takes a deliberate desire to jettison a personal theistic Creator from the creation we enjoy...and frankly, no one has enough faith to truly hold to an atheist worldview OR...to blow it off to 'nobody knows' .
I find it very disrespectful to be told what I believe or do not believe. I have a specific view point, and it may be wrong or misguided, but it is mine. Accusing someone of being a liar, and claiming that you know what goes on in their heart and mind, without even having the benefit of ever meeting them!?! To me that is the height of hubris, arrogance and disrespect.
In short, I think that a minimum level of respect necessary for civil discourse is to at least grant someone the right to their own opinion and belief. You may think it is wrong, illogical or intellectually dishonest, but at least acknowledge that it exists!
-NoCapo
P.S. Contrary to your assertion, I am both an atheist and an agnostic, and I do honestly hold both positions. It stems not from a desire to eliminate a god, but to honestly evaluate the evidence at hand and to draw a conclusion only where the evidence warrants it.
Umm no, im not trying to 'convince' you . If you want to pretend that our Cosmos isnt on a razors edge as far as precision goes or that non materials things like abstract thinking, logic, reason, love, etc...can originate from rocks, dirt, planets a very big explosion on a stellar evolution scale ...then you are welcome to that fallacy . Such is the beauty of freewill choice. The evidence of external intelligence is all around...from the specific instructions occuring in the DNA cell , to the migrational habit of the 4th generation (only) Monarch Butterfly, to the extreme physics constants needed for earth to be here such as the Cosmological Constant anthropic having a critical tolerance leeway of 150 decimal places with over 140 other scientifically defined Constants of near equal precision..., the human brain which top world scientists cant begin to duplicate or understand its workings (yet blind random chances could make it) , along with many other obvious examples.
It takes a deliberate desire to jettison a personal theistic Creator from the creation we enjoy...and frankly, no one has enough faith to truly hold to an atheist worldview OR...to blow it off to 'nobody knows' .
Whether you want to pursue this issue or not is up to you, but, if you do the best inexpensive book ive ever come across for compelling scientific evidence for a personal theistic Creator is the book called 'Creation' by Dr. Grant Jeffries available on www.amazon.com for $.01 good used copy plus shipping. Theres no good excuse not to get a copy , at least for the sincere Investigator.
Oh, you disappoint me not putting up a better argument than to slope off the stage with a few non - returnable fallacies about a perfectly balanced universe designed just so we could live it in, plus the snipe about bias being my reason for not buying your unsupported claims -as if it wasn't also your reason for buying into them - and the suggestion that I let someone else in a book on creation (I wouldn't waste even one dollar on it) present the case you seem unable to make.
If it tempts you at all, I haven't yet said that I don't buy your arguments, just that I don't already 'know' they are valid until you've argued them.
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) but I'd like to see what evidence you have to compel me from the 'something from nothing' is just as likely without a 'cosmic mind' theory to it cannot have come about without a 'willful Mind' as you put it.
