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Originally Posted by ZoryaWell, Jesus told us that if we want to be loved, we should love others the way we want to be loved ourselves. So one could conclude that if you don't want to be a slave, you also should not keep slaves yourselves.
I don't think that's the point though. The problem was that in early America, the slaveowners were the primary focal point of the Christian religion, as far as slaves were concerned. It was up to them to teach the slaves the word of the Bible. So what would be a wonderful way to control that? By teaching the parts of the Bible that condone (or don't prohibit) slavery! It's a wonderful way to misinform people in order to get them to do something for you. The interpretation of the Bible that the slaves had was one that condoned slavery (I'm one to believe that it still does-but that's not the point) in order to keep them in check.
“No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means”- George Bernard Shaw
Errrmmmm... I'm kind of hesitant to touch on this subject because I think it raises some issues.
Anyway, anytime you have groups of people that have it really, really 'tough' such as the slaves of the 1500-1800's, the following inhumane equality that African Americans had in the early 20th century, or any other 'tough' time you'll find that religion becomes a little more deeply rooted. I think it's one of man's ways of coping with the unfairness of life. It doesn't mean it's true, it's just a way to deal with the bad things in life. "Life got you down? God is there." "Are you being treated unequally? God is there!" "Sad about the death of a loved one? God is there!" I think that many people bind to that because it gives them hope that there is a better thing than just this plain old miserable life. It's a way to cope, a way to deal. However, I'm forced to think that if there were no concept of God than people would strive harder to make their lives better. A belief in God says "Don't uprise, God will be there when you die." A belief in God says "You don't have to make things better for yourself, God will do that." In the end, it seems to me like far too many people throughout history have sat around waiting for God to do something and he never did it. What a waste!
Why do you think the more advanced or co-called civilized nations seem to be based in Christianity? I am just curious because you said you believe people would strive harder to to make their lives better without the concept of God but quite the opposite seems to be true. Just asking..
Location: Boy, giraffes are selfish, just runnin’ around looking out for number one.
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Originally Posted by Tricky D
Originally Posted by ZoryaWell, Jesus told us that if we want to be loved, we should love others the way we want to be loved ourselves. So one could conclude that if you don't want to be a slave, you also should not keep slaves yourselves.
Or condone it.
That's makes perfect sense to me. I doubt however that was the passage the slave owners were stressing to their slaves.
I know that wasn't the point.
I only wanted to illustrate that religion is not that simple.
If you believe religion to be simple than you will make lotsa mistakes, but if you truly think it through it becomes not that black and white as we usually think it is.
I see a distinct difference between Christianity in Europe and for as far as I can 'see' in America. For instance here gay and being Christian, or gay marriages aren't that controversial (at least here in Holland).
Why do you think the more advanced or co-called civilized nations seem to be based in Christianity? I am just curious because you said you believe people would strive harder to to make their lives better without the concept of God but quite the opposite seems to be true. Just asking..
I'm afraid that you're taking what I said out of place. I think that within all humans there's a necessity to strive for more. That, of course, is one of the reasons why Communism doesn't work.
I think what happens though, is that people get in a 'rut'. You may say one individual, a family, or perhaps generation after generation of a particular race or something to that extent. To classify slavery as a 'rut' does not do the inhumanity justice but for lack of a better word at the moment, I think you get my point. Anyway, it is during those depressing times, sometimes awful times, that it seems people grow more attached to their faiths. The phrase "There are no Atheists in foxholes" is an example of something like this. It's not true of course... there are atheists in foxholes... been there done that.
What I'm getting at, is that people who believe, tend to believe STRONGER when things are on the down and outs. When the whole world around them is falling apart, they sit back and say "Well, life sucks real bad for the time being, but God is going to pull me through it, or God is going to let me rejoice with him when it's all over." To me, it's almost as if it takes the responsibility away from the individual to act on their own. It's like saying "God guide me through this because I'm not capable." It's giving up. It's quitting and promotes failure.
The point I was trying to make in my previous post was not that people are going to try and make things better without God (that's innate in human nature regardless of your beliefs) but when things are really bad, inaction seems to almost be better than action because "God's going to take care of me." That ideology has failure written all over it. My view is "Life's tough... But, the only thing you can do to make it better is to force yourself to work through it. Work harder to get out of that rut. Lift YOURSELF up and push through whatever it is keeping you down. Don't sit there and wait for some metaphysical force to take over because you might be waiting a while and in the meanwhile your problem isn't going to fix itself."
It is a fine thing to establish one's own religion in one's heart, not to be dependent on tradition and second-hand ideals. Life will seem to you, later, not a lesser, but a greater thing. - D.H. Lawrence
The entire premise of your post is obviously to bash Christianity, so I'm not sure anything I say at this point will change your crusade...
BUT I would like to point out that Christianity spread through Africa LONG before the slave ships arrived (as a footnote Islam also later spread into Africa long before the "slave ships" showed up too.) Over a thousand years in fact.
Many of those enslaved already had a Christian faith and to assume that they are ONLY following the religion of their masters is simply false.
You may continue on with your rant without interruption from us uneducated, fundementalist, racist, bigots now.
Thank you for the kind welcome Jviello, but the purpose of this particular thread was not to bash Christianity, but moreso, as you will find out over time, to generate thinking (independent thought). I realize that for some people, ANY issue raised against Christianity is likely to be received with "Oh lok at how they are persecuting us," but that is not the case. I asked the question because it was posed on another site.
I have yet to scour this site to know the demograhic. I don't know how many black folks are on here and I realize topics dealing with slavery and so forth might be sensitive, but I'm black and from the Caribbean and it doesn't bother me one bit nor do I hold any ill feelings toward anyone. It just simply amazes me about the power of religion upon the human pysche.
It is certainly amazing to me how great of a stranglehold the Christian faith has on black people, most notably. It is so great that I am almost sure many of us who are black barely know 3 black people within our circle of family and/or friends who are avowed atheists or agnostics.
Thoughts.
My brother (not biological) is Black and an agnostic - possibly more of an atheist, but he still has some doubts and/or hopes about the whole thing. He was raised mostly by his Baptist Aunt & Uncle, but I think he began having doubts when he realized he's gay... that would certainly give me doubts, considering how some of his Christian relatives reacted! That's one reason my family is now his family, because we accepted him "as is," and never judged him for being gay. Anyway, he's not the only Black agnostic/atheist I've known, especially if you include people who are mixed race... so while it's probably less common, I guess it's not that unusual.
European countries are relieving themselves of fundamentalist attitudes in regards to Christianity.
Europe never had a prevailing fundamentalist attitude in regard to Christianity. Fundamentalist Christianity is mostly an American invention, and what few inroads fundamentalism made into Europe mostly came via America.
Europe never had a prevailing fundamentalist attitude in regard to Christianity. Fundamentalist Christianity is mostly an American invention, and what few inroads fundamentalism made into Europe mostly came via America.
Just got back from home (St. Thomas) a few weeks ago from my class reunion and from the looks of it, there are not may people of my own color down there who would even think of not believing in God . Was in Jamaica in December and the same thing over there.
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So one could conclude that if you don't want to be a slave, you also should not keep slaves yourselves.
I know that wasn't the point. 
That's one reason my family is now his family, because we accepted him "as is," and never judged him for being gay. Anyway, he's not the only Black agnostic/atheist I've known, especially if you include people who are mixed race... so while it's probably less common, I guess it's not that unusual.
