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true if- () ... we are only known species that we know of. seeing the pattern? if all we know is us what else will we know? kinda like a " lonely at the top" philosophy
If we are alone at the top, so what. It is what it is.
Unless you are expressing a desire to be infantilized by requiring company to share the responsibility that goes with sentience, I'm not seeing the point.
Im saying just because we know this one thing about our selves, does not mean we automatically know things about other life forms, or are the only ones
but mstelm- thats what research studying and learning is!
i can hear it now. true , yet it does not force the meaning of life we have for ourselves on to other life forms, and introduces a logical falicy in assuming that our rules apply to other lives.
with your stand point im safe to say " those poor dumb inferior whales and penguins etc etc "
its my understanding that G-d's knowledge and Man's knowledge exist both
Ours is limited and G-d's is not
But if there is no god, then ours is the best there is. If there is a god, you should be able to produce some decent evidence to thow that there is, ortherwise, fo far as we know the best products of Human science and logic is the best we have.
[qupte]true if- () ... we are only known species that we know of. seeing the pattern? if all we know is us what else will we know? kinda like a " lonely at the top" philosophy [/quote]
Unless we evolve a decent bit more I would rather we don't discover an alien race. But What difference does it make. There was another pretty intelligent species besides up. Now it's gone (perhaps just as well ) but we know it was there. If there is another alien race somewhere, (and I would bet there is) we may never know it, but the supposition that ot's there is as good as knowing that it is but we can only exchange a message every 10 million years.
Before we even know the universe was there and it was thought that Humans ws all there on a flat disk made for us, with dome over it, it didn't seem to bother us at all. Now we know there is an unimaginably huge universe there, we are supposed to start feeling lonely? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstelm
Im saying just because we know this one thing about our selves, does not mean we automatically know things about other life forms, or are the only ones
we can guess tho
We can make an estimation based on the best evidence. This is quite different from the 'believe- or not' thinking of religious apologetics. That's without rejection of evidence that doesn't suit.
The recent discoveries about the sheer numbers of stars, the general availability of the buolding blocks of life (biochenicals), a lot more planets than we thought, and the idea of self -replication of biochemical compounds looking a lot more plausible than it did has presumably been taken on board by the believers. And good for them. They never took Genesis literally anyway, and if God can arrange for one species to emerge on one planet he can surely do it on another.
Now this is no problem for religious belief, the Bible or human knowledge (science). But if Dogma insisted that God would never make any other species than man, then there would be a problem. Human knowledge would be dismissed and 'God' knows more' trotted out as Proof. And (because you know this is crap reasoning because that dogma does not obtain -or not now; some at one time denied the possibility of alien races on doctrinal grounds), you can apply that same thinking to dogma that you DO believe vs. human knowledge, and understand why appeal to 'God knowing more' doesn't wash.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-18-2017 at 05:54 PM..
Im sorry, but are we not talking about humans being the most intelligent species on the planet?
if we are, then " evidence for G-d" isn't really a part of this, furthermore where is the evidence that we are the most intelligent species? is that not arguably an assumption we have about our selves that makes us feel good?
i used a confusing analogy when i said " lonely at the top" by no means do i mean to communicate the emotion loneliness, , "with out equal and none other like us" .. you know ... " only"
but mstelm- thats what research studying and learning is!
i can hear it now. true , yet it does not force the meaning of life we have for ourselves on to other life forms, and introduces a logical falicy in assuming that our rules apply to other lives.
with your stand point im safe to say " those poor dumb inferior whales and penguins etc etc "
Well, since the only life -forms we know seems to conform to common rules of survival, why should we assume that any alien races that evolved on other planets would behave any differently? Sure, if they have developed complex societies, their moral codes will differ from ours just as our moral codes differ on earth, while still having a lot of instinctive and practical lessons in common. Why should any alien race be any different from that? Why is this apparently some kind of problem that you think it should be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstelm
Im sorry, but are we not talking about humans being the most intelligent species on the planet?
if we are, then " evidence for G-d" isn't really a part of this, furthermore where is the evidence that we are the most intelligent species? is that not arguably an assumption we have about our selves that makes us feel good?
like a security blanket?
Whether we are more intelligent is a matter of experiment, not bipedal arrogance. The tests have graded animal intelligence pretty reliably. If you have better reason that "We don't know everything" to doubt this, please present your reasoning.
The fact that we have by far the best (indeed the only) form of problem -solving instinct that has allowed us to develop science and logic to indicate what is believable and what isn't "evidence for God" is not only part of it, but the only part of it that really matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstelm
i used a confusing analogy when i said " lonely at the top" by no means do i mean to communicate the emotion loneliness, , "with out equal and none other like us" .. you know ... " only"
apologies.
I was applying the idea pretty broadly from other intelligent species wherever they are, or were, or may be. It still isn't really a problem.
Well, since the only life -forms we know seems to conform to common rules of survival, why should we assume that any alien races that evolved on other planets would behave any differently? Sure, if they have developed complex societies, their moral codes will differ from ours just as our moral codes differ on earth, while still having a lot of instinctive and practical lessons in common. Why should any alien race be any different from that? Why is this apparently some kind of problem that you think it should be?
Ok, Im not sure why you bring up aliens in the face of penguins, so i'm catching up to where you're coming from a little, On point- i haven't said things living life differently is a problem, actually i said the opposite- with ever life living as it understands, how it needs- and that is intelligent of them
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Whether we are more intelligent is a matter of experiment, not bipedal arrogance. The tests have graded animal intelligence pretty reliably. If you have better reason that "We don't know everything" to doubt this, please present your reasoning.
i do not concur with your argument that we are more intelligent simply because we find answers to our questions. intelligence is currently defined as "the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills". Reasoning that if another life-form doesn't have [have need of] a question, and it does not go about finding an answer, than it is in no way less intelligent, yet learning and applying solutions relevant to its life is intelligence.
Quote:
The fact that we have by far the best (indeed the only) form of problem -solving instinct that has allowed us to develop science and logic to indicate what is believable and what isn't "evidence for God" is not only part of it, but the only part of it that really matters.
inaccurate, as there have been many observations of animals solving problems, using logic and so forth. (eg. eagles not only push their young out, watching them and catching them as many times as needed, also take their nests apart so the young has no comfort. Giraffes will help their new born baby stand then kick them force-ably down again, so they get up and stand on their own). examples of animals problem solving are abundant.
We all know that we don't know if animals are taught to know G-d's existence, and how. to say they don't is an assumption.
Im saying just because we know this one thing about our selves, does not mean we automatically know things about other life forms, or are the only ones
we can guess tho
No real need to guess, my point is that human intellect is all the intellect we have at present; I wasn't commenting on whether it's that unique. The odds are that there are other examples elsewhere in the universe, but I'm of the view that this isn't a Star Trek-like universe just teeming with sentient life or we'd have some indication of it by now.
I think it's likely rare for races to advance this far ... there is probably a developmental brick wall that most don't get past. Soberingly we may not have even encountered it yet ourselves. I suspect it has to do with the fact that technological development tends to outpace the ability to responsibly wield it. There are so many ways to off ourselves collectively -- climate change, AI, nanotech, nuclear war, and more.
Turning to imagined supernatural saviors won't help this, we need to get our collective s__t together before it's too late. So ... just because I believe human intellect is all we have, I don't therefore assume it's necessarily up to the task either.
When natural selection brought us to self-awareness -- of our mortality, the story arc of our lives -- it drove us half mad. I am not certain we're rational enough to play with all our fancy toys. Part of that irrationality is, alas, our belief in supernatural beings and realms.
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) ... we are only known species that we know of. seeing the pattern? if all we know is us what else will we know? kinda like a " lonely at the top" philosophy 
) but we know it was there. If there is another alien race somewhere, (and I would bet there is) we may never know it, but the supposition that ot's there is as good as knowing that it is but we can only exchange a message every 10 million years.
