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I see the situation for what it is. You are not “anti-atheist” despite his attempts to label you as such. You are simply opposed to his methods and double standards, which include limiting discussion to exclude legitimate science-based arguments for ‘something more’. He prefers a more simplistic, black and white approach whereas you see shades of gray and you hold atheists to the same standards of reasoning that atheists hold others to. You see his methods as dishonest and giving more intellectual atheists a bad name.
What I find especially interesting is that Trans is willing to tolerate other people who hold beliefs about ‘something more’ so long as they keep quiet about them and actively participate in Christian-bashing, but you don’t fit into that mould. He sees you as an enemy, while considering those other ‘something more’ believers as allies.
Also interesting is how thin-skinned Trans is, as evidenced by how often he applies the term “atheist-bashing” to comments that he’d see as ‘just being frank’ if the same sentiments were coming from him. Obvious double-standards and skewed perspective, based on who is saying it.
Anyway, I could go on but I think I’ve provided enough to show that I understand the ‘disconnect’ you referred to.
I see the situation for what it is. You are not “anti-atheist” despite his attempts to label you as such. You are simply opposed to his methods and double standards, which include limiting discussion to exclude legitimate science-based arguments for ‘something more’. He prefers a more simplistic, black and white approach whereas you see shades of gray and you hold atheists to the same standards of reasoning that atheists hold others to. You see his methods as dishonest and giving more intellectual atheists a bad name.
What I find especially interesting is that Trans is willing to tolerate other people who hold beliefs about ‘something more’ so long as they keep quiet about them and actively participate in Christian-bashing, but you don’t fit into that mould. He sees you as an enemy, while considering those other ‘something more’ believers as allies.
Also interesting is how thin-skinned Trans is, as evidenced by how often he applies the term “atheist-bashing” to comments that he’d see as ‘just being frank’ if the same sentiments were coming from him. Obvious double-standards and skewed perspective, based on who is saying it.
Anyway, I could go on but I think I’ve provided enough to show that I understand the ‘disconnect’ you referred to.
No, you have merely provided splendid evidence of how crafty and dishonest Christian apologetics are, in attaching all manner of canards to this or that remark. 'anti atheist' is (as you would know if you collected valid points as assiduously as you did quotes to mine to put atheists on the spot) used by me to counter the accusation of anti-theism (Julian did that one) used as a pejorative to show how hateful and violent atheism is, because you have no other case to make. I need only point up how you Christians and non -believers alike hop into the sack together, connected by a common hatred of 'New atheism'.
One to defend Christianity against secularism, the others to defend conservative values, of which Christianity is the best weapon the others have.
I have seen no evidence of practicing conservative values on these boards. Touting them, yes. Employing them, no.
If I want to define the moral obligations of atheists, I just have to guess at what they are not. "Stand up to religious claims" has been mentioned that atheists should not do. So then to be moral one should "Not stand up to religious claims."
So now we have two claims side by side.
Moral behavior: Stand up to religious claims.
Immoral behavior: Don't stand up to religious claims.
But then it has been mentioned it is the "way" one fights that makes it moral or immoral. So these are the two claims side-by-side.
Moral behavior: It depends.
Immoral behavior: It depends.
Finally, both sides accuse each other of lying.
Moral behavior: Accuse others of lying.
Immoral behavior: Accuse others of lying.
atheist/theist can stand up to religion. We all agree that we stand up to oppression. This is a general moral obligation thread not just a anti-religious moral obligation thread.
On the battle field its simple. Pick a side and line up. We are not on a battle field, we are in a religion and spirituality forum. A battle field would be more reflected in an activist site.
I feel, its a moral obligation for people within any given statement of belief about god to question their own motives first. In a religion and spirituality forum, what is more honest. Beliefs based on based on probable, plausible, and not likely or is deity or no deity only is the most moral position to take.
We, as atheist, have as moral obligation to call out atheist that herding us to where they want us to be. Its exactly what religion-ist type people do to others.
atheist/theist can stand up to religion. We all agree that we stand up to oppression. This is a general moral obligation thread not just a anti-religious moral obligation thread.
On the battle field its simple. Pick a side and line up. We are not on a battle field, we are in a religion and spirituality forum. A battle field would be more reflected in an activist site.
I feel, its a moral obligation for people within any given statement of belief about god to question their own motives first. In a religion and spirituality forum, what is more honest. Beliefs based on based on probable, plausible, and not likely or is deity or no deity only is the most moral position to take.
We, as atheist, have as moral obligation to call out atheist that herding us to where they want us to be. Its exactly what religion-ist type people do to others.
Arach, you have a very prescriptive way of determining right from wrong. I can guess at your ways but I think I would be over-stepping my bounds and I don't want to do that. I don't like trying to read minds.
No, you have merely provided splendid evidence of how crafty and dishonest Christian apologetics are, in attaching all manner of canards to this or that remark. 'anti atheist' is (as you would know if you collected valid points as assiduously as you did quotes to mine to put atheists on the spot) used by me to counter the accusation of anti-theism (Julian did that one) used as a pejorative to show how hateful and violent atheism is, because you have no other case to make. I need only point up how you Christians and non -believers alike hop into the sack together, connected by a common hatred of 'New atheism'.
One to defend Christianity against secularism, the others to defend conservative values, of which Christianity is the best weapon the others have.
This is another example of your dishonesty used to obscure and confuse the actual meaning of anti-theism as opposed to atheism as disingenuously defined by you and your cohort. You are anti-theist (or anti-religion in practice) which essentially just "lacks belief" in the religious beliefs ABOUT God. Atheism refers to the NONEXISTENCE of God, but to dodge your desired burden of proof nonsense, you demur from any actual denial of the existence of God while actively demanding evidence of God's existence (which is implicitly the same thing).
ALL you atheists can refute are the specific BELIEFS ABOUT God, NOT the existence of God because our Reality EXISTS, period and science is impotent to resolve the ontology of it. Until "proven otherwise," we have no clue WHAT science is discovering evidence OF.
No. This is part of you being complicit in the mucky use of the term 'anti -theist', which one atheist was shown in a video as using the term, but also explaining that this just meant actively taking up polemic arms against the influence and propaganda of Religion. It is used (muckily) to support a claim about how toxic and dangerous atheism is.
I suppose that I yet again have to refute you last point. No, atheism cannot disprove a god of some sort. We do not need to. Theists have the burden of proof, as I believe you have been told before.
Yes, specific beliefs about this or that god or the holy books are more open to refutation.
None of that does you or your case, beliefs or credibility much good at all.
Arach, you have a very prescriptive way of determining right from wrong. I can guess at your ways but I think I would be over-stepping my bounds and I don't want to do that. I don't like trying to read minds.
Yup, No doubt I am 1/2 crazy. lets have a look on how I determine morals and if they are falling short ...
I actually am not deciding right and wrong based on "prescription". I compare things like open/honest to censorship/obscure-ism. "Prescriptive" may or may not apply.
As you see me say all the time ... when in doubt and if I am crazy we have no trouble ... listing anything we disagree on side by side, our life expresses, and why we are weighting observations the way we do.
No. This is part of you being complicit in the mucky use of the term 'anti -theist', which one atheist was shown in a video as using the term, but also explaining that this just meant actively taking up polemic arms against the influence and propaganda of Religion. It is used (muckily) to support a claim about how toxic and dangerous atheism is.
I suppose that I yet again have to refute you last point. No, atheism cannot disprove a god of some sort. We do not need to. Theists have the burden of proof, as I believe you have been told before.
Yes, specific beliefs about this or that god or the holy books are more open to refutation.
None of that does you or your case, beliefs or credibility much good at all.
yup, and when the belief is plausible its the only the atheist moral thing to do is get it stopped.
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