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This is a valid point as far as it goes - which isn't very far.
A childhood belief in Santa Claus is almost always based on reliance on the statements of parents and other authority figures. For a child, this is an entirely legitimate evidentiary foundation. (It's also a good lesson that blind reliance on authority figures can be dangerous.)
Religious beliefs may - and often do - develop in childhood in the same way, via reliance on parents and other authority figures. (Mine didn't - my parents didn't care squat what I believed - but childhood indoctrination is common.)
If someone never gave the childhood indoctrination another thought and continued on that path for the rest of his or her life, then the Santa Claus analogy would be at least marginally relevant. There may be adult believers for whom this is true, but I haven't met them outside of what I regard as rigidly controlling cult-like denominations, they would have to be few and far between in mainstream Christianity, and they would have to be very simple people. As the famous book The Five Stages of Faith established, most adults go through stages of faith that involve substantial doubt and questioning.
So what you're suggesting is true, if at all, for a very small segment of the Christian community. To suggest it's true for most Christians is a false and misleading caricature of the sort atheists love. To the extent it may be sincere, it reflects a complete lack of familiarity with the Christian community.
The fact that there may be some Christians like this doesn't alter the central truth that billions of sane and intelligent people have found the evidence and arguments in favor of Christianity to be compelling, while at the same time discarding Santa by the age of five. Presumably most of those who believe on the basis of parental authority would find the same evidence and arguments compelling if they were presented with them; for most, it would only strengthen their belief.
And, of course, the argument you're making would apply equally to a child indoctrinated into atheism and/or a disdain for Christianity by parents and other authority figures.
There is a fact or truth that is pretty well demonstrated by the Santa analogy and what you explain about influences that profoundly affect billions of people on the planet still to this day. How we're raised. The proof of this truth is the map of world religions. Just like where Santa may or may not be part of the history or culture in different countries, so too we see where different religions are found most prevalent where others are not. This should tell us something about why it is so many people believe what they do.
Well, if it's "child's play", then you're certainly qualified -- based on the strength of your many posts -- to handle it.
Assessment of the evidence in almost all things is how we live our lives. We base our purchases on it. We base who we do or don't marry on it. We based our career/job goals on it. We base our friendships on it. In fact, although much of it eventually gets down to habit and seemingly not thinking about it, we make dozens of decisions a day based on our assessment of evidence. That's what most of life is -- making choices.
There's only one little problem with that kind of decision making when it comes to religion -- and here, christianity is almost no different than any other religion -- with occasional exceptions, you become the dominant religion where you are raised. If you're raised in Hoboken, there's an overwhelming chance that you'll be christian. If you're born in Bangkok, there's an overwhelming chance that you'll be Buddhist. If you're born in Jeddah, there's an overwhelming chance that you'll be Muslim. Most children become what the culture of their country dictate, and I use the term dictate intentionally. Sure, there are exceptions, but even with most exceptions, there's an identifiable reason an exception was made. You make it sound as if all those billions of christians literally sat down, compared the various world religions, and said, "Eureka, it's christianity!". And that's not just bull toddy...it's the big lie. It's -- more than anything else -- the herd instinct.
And you argument that, "billions of sane and intelligent people, including some of the best philosophers, scientists, academics and professionals who have ever lived, have found that same evidence so strong and compelling that the Christian claims have served as the foundation for their lives" could be made about intelligent people, philosophers, academics, scientists, and professionals who are Buddhists, or Muslims, or Hindus belong to their religions. We're inundated with Western culture, so we know the Westerners. Each culture has its leaders and academics...and they don't all turn out to be christians.
I will agree with you on one point that you made. The whole Santa Clause versus Christ thing is not a very good tool in these discussions. However, it is NO different than things I have heard christians say o do about Siddhartha or Mohammed, or leaders of other religions. Before retiring, we had a parent in my school who...well, she tried to be romantic with me. She happened to be on our PTA, so she was at the school often. Sometimes when she came in she would walk up and rub my (at the time) small belly and, "You're my little Buddha". How disrespectful can you get? In my roughly 3 years in Thailand I've seen Americans -- and therefore probably christians -- climb up and sit in the lap of Buddha statues. What are these christians thinking to be so disrespectful? They're too dumb and/or thoughtless to even think about "Do unto others..". So before you ask we non-believers to take the high road...you'd better try to find the high road yourselves (note plural).
True, and the truth about this sort of influence is made all the more obvious the more one has the chance to visit other countries where we're certainly "not in Kansas anymore." It isn't just Santa or religion. It's the different products that are suddenly more prevalent than back home. Different ways of doing things. Different ways of thinking. Different cultures, based on just this. The history of the people wherever you may be. How can anyone not see how these influences affect the thinking and beliefs of billions of people far more than any direct link to what is ultimately the universal truth for all of us?
Santa may not exist in many parts of the world. Never did, but nowhere in the world anymore does anyone still believe the Sun rotates around the Earth.
There is a fact or truth that is pretty well demonstrated by the Santa analogy and what you explain about influences that profoundly affect billions of people on the planet still to this day. How we're raised. The proof of this truth is the map of world religions. Just like where Santa may or may not be part of the history or culture in different countries, so too we see where different religions are found most prevalent where others are not. This should tell us something about why it is so many people believe what they do.
Exceptions to the rule do not make the rule.
Well, let's see. You start a thread saying the Santa analogy is old, tired and not very apt and you wonder if there is anything better. When a highly intelligent and articulate believer kicks the Santa analogy and its defenders up one side and down the other, suddenly you don't think it's so bad. Par for the course in Atheist World, eh?
Of course, much religious affiliation is highly influenced by nurture and culture. Some people affiliate primarily for social, cultural and economic reasons unrelated to truth. So what? This really doesn't tell us anything about the strength of the foundation for the religion. If 100,000,000 sane and intelligent people, including philosophers, scientists, academics and professionals, have arrived at Christian beliefs after serious consideration of the evidence, inferences and arguments on both sides, it's irrelevant if 900,000,000 others hold Christian beliefs without much thought or primarily for social, cultural or economic reasons.
The people here want to believe that it's the lowest stratum of belief that determines the strength of the Christian claims. No, it's the highest stratum, which is why I keep referencing philosophers, scientists, academics and others who are intelligent, educated and capable of evaluating truth claims. (I am not demeaning the humble folks who simply believe. The Christian message is primarily directed to the heart, and a simple, humble heart is the one most likely to hear and respond to God's call. But these folks are not useful in countering atheist claims that believing in God is like believing in Santa.)
I do include Jews, Muslims, Hindus, et al., in my billions of sane and intelligent believers. All of them have found the evidence, inferences and arguments sufficient to cross the threshold into theistic belief. For this reason, they provide the most fertile soil for the Christian message. Even if they remain in their present religions, they help demonstrate that atheist claims about the silliness of religion are nonsense. Exactly the same logic applies: If 100,000,000 sane and intelligent people, including philosophers, scientists, academics and professionals, have arrived at Muslim beliefs after serious consideration of the evidence, inferences and arguments on both sides, it's irrelevant if 900,000,000 others hold Muslim beliefs without much thought or primarily for social, cultural or economic reasons.
If I were you I would take an example from christ in terms of humility, and stop declaring yourself the winner of the discussion.
You love playing the "humility" card, don't you? Intellectually, I have no reason to be humble. I have an IQ in the 99.7th percentile and am highly educated in philosophy, theology and argumentation. Any humility in regard to my intellect and communication abilities would be entirely false humility. I am indeed humble in areas where I should be humble, and especially those relevant to my Christian walk. I don't see that I have "declared myself the winner" anywhere - I am simply tweaking those who make fools of themselves (like you) by suggesting my arguments are weak or flawed because they are intellectually incapable of dealing with the substance. I've been doing this for many, many years, pal - I don't make weak or flawed arguments, at least not very often.
Last edited by Irkle Berserkle; 02-17-2021 at 12:07 PM..
True, and the truth about this sort of influence is made all the more obvious the more one has the chance to visit other countries where we're certainly "not in Kansas anymore." It isn't just Santa or religion. It's the different products that are suddenly more prevalent than back home. Different ways of doing things. Different ways of thinking. Different cultures, based on just this. The history of the people wherever you may be. How can anyone not see how these influences affect the thinking and beliefs of billions of people far more than any direct link to what is ultimately the universal truth for all of us?
Santa may not exist in many parts of the world. Never did, but nowhere in the world anymore does anyone still believe the Sun rotates around the Earth.
While I can't say it's a "rule", I've found more often than not that those who travel internationally to any real extent -- and I'm not talking about the tours where if it's Tuesday it must be Ayutthaya -- are far more understanding and tolerant of other religions, even if they fully maintain their own religions. Those who basically stay in their own country and never really experience other cultures tend to be the same who cannot look beyond their own religions to any extent. I'm talking generally...I have met exceptions.
You love playing the "humility" card, don't you? Intellectually, I have no reason to be humble. I have an IQ in the 99.7th percentile and am highly educated in philosophy, theology and argumentation. Any humility in regard to my intellect and communication abilities would be entirely false humility. I am indeed humble in areas where I should be humble, and especially those relevant to my Christian walk. I don't see that I have "declared myself the winner" anywhere - I am simply tweaking those who make fools of themselves (like you) by suggesting my arguments are weak or flawed because they are intellectually incapable of dealing with the substance. I've been doing this for many, many years, pal - I don't make weak or flawed arguments.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. None of us cares what your self-declared IQ is. Is that you, Donald? The most brilliant people in the world can be wrong about so many things. I've seen a number of brilliant people who cannot get along with others in even the mundane social situations.
I don't care much what your education is. I've known a few very well educated fools in my life. Including at least one who ended up sleeping under a bridge. I've also worked with plenty of brilliant Asperger's students and adults.
Your problems are a lack of humility, which is something many of us don't respect, and your preachiness (or shall I say nagging attitude) of the same old same old.
We don't know you other than your posts. And we don't see the same things that you see in your posts.
The analogy doesn't work well because the belief in God is acceptable for adults while the belief in Santa is not. As Sam Harris says: “While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still holds immense prestige in our society. Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about. It is telling that this aura of nobility extends only to those faiths that still have many subscribers. Anyone caught worshipping Poseidon, even at sea, will be thought insane.”
I might add this: Precisely what is being suggested about religious belief is equally true of atheistic belief. I lived through a period, unlikely as it may seem now, when Christianity was the hip thing. Celebrities who probably couldn't name the four gospels were suddenly wearing crosses and flaunting their Christianity.
Now, the pendulum has swung. Consistent with what I believe to be a descent into end-times depravity, atheism and Christian-bashing are suddenly hip. Atheism fits nicely into the woke narrative, whereas traditional Christianity is distinctly unwoke and proud of it. Richard Dawkins and his fellow New Atheists have birthed a veritable flood of pseudo-atheists whose actual knowledge of atheism doesn't extend beyond YouTube and whose pseudo-atheism is almost entirely a cultural/social/economic one.
This reality simply underscores my point that things like the Santa analogy must be examined not at the lowest intellectual level of belief (or nonbelief) but at the highest. At the highest level of Christian belief, the best evidence, inferences and arguments on all sides have been examined and the individual has come down on the side of Christianity. Ditto at the highest level of atheistic belief. Ditto at the highest level of Hindu belief.
When this is done, the Santa analogy goes poof. It's valid only if uses the most mindless or non-truth-driven sort of religious belief for purposes of comparison - but then it's equally valid if one uses the most mindless or non-truth-driven sort of atheistic belief for purposes of comparison.
One beauty of Christianity is that it is able to speak to people of all socio-economic circumstances and intellectual levels. God can and does call anyone. The call may come, and the heart may be convicted, in an entirely unexpected moment - or this may occur only at the finish of a long and diligent quest. Many, many of those Christians whom you folks think are no more than cultural Christians have in fact experienced God in a direct way that requires no further thought or analysis.
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