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I love atheists. I sincerely do. One of my favorite profs in university was a Marxist atheist. He was wonderful. He was awesome. He was brilliant. He was very impassioned about the things he believed in and was sincere in his beliefs of helping humanity.
How can anyone judge him?? He was doing the very best he could for his fellow man based on the gifts he was given to share with others.
My 2 cents to the peanut gallery.
[quote=GCSTroop;3752638]
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I think that the human mind can force itself to believe in anything if it wants to. However, for me, it's about being intellectually honest with myself. I have no doubt that I could become a "believer" like all of the rest, but I don't think I'd be happy, and I'm pretty certain I wouldn't REALLY believe. I could certainly put on the facade of believing. I could go to church every Sunday, say I worship Jesus, and preach to the masses, and I imagine I'd be quite good at it. However, I don't think I'd be happy because I wouldn't TRULY believe it. The evidence is just not there for me and I think that in the end I would feel untrue to myself living a life of societal pressure rather than that of intellectual honesty.
You're honest. As a man thinketh in his heart, so he is. I agree. Whatever we truly think inside... is the reality of where we are.
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In the end, what's the difference between an Atheist who says he believes and an Atheist who says he doesn't believe?
Honesty. Integrity. Which you have when you share what you truly believe... not playing to the crowd... but speaking from your own mind and your own intellect. Why would God punish you for not having received GRACE whereby to believe anything differently?? It makes no sense. God would only do good to bring you to a different faith... and He would only do things to change you if He really wants a certain end result He deems "acceptable".
God won't ask you to do something yourself that is incongruent with the reality of what you truly think and believe. He'll give you the faith if faith is what He requires from you.
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That's kind of a catch-all cop-out in my opinion. I'm just an Atheist because I haven't been "touched" by the hand of God yet? I find that to be a pretty shallow argument in my opinion. I'm not calling YOU shallow, but those who wish to bring this sort of thing up are pretty callous themselves.
Well, it is a worldview conflict. What I personally think is there must be mutual respect. To us, it's an undeniable fact. Why? Because we believe it. But to you, it's fantasy and a shallow argument. I just think it's callous not to respect where you are coming from and to say you should "try harder" when you just can't say something is real that you don't believe - and be an honest and congruent person.
And if we really love you... won't we accept you where you are?? I think we will - and respect you and not judge you like you're somehow willfully denying something you know to be true with a real living faith inside of you.
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If I had a "spiritual" encounter of some sort I would not be so ignorant as to disbelieve it however I would question what particular deity caused it. If I had a spiritual encounter and the guy said "Troop, this is Jesus, you will believe in me or I am going to send you to the lake of fire" than that's a bit of a no-brainer. On the other hand, I fail to see why a spiritual encounter automatically defaults to that of the Christian God. Why WOULDN'T or COULDN'T it be Allah? How would I know? Unless, of course, spiritual encounters automatically default to the religion dominant within society.
Hmmmm... good points. (Side note: The lake of fire burns out anything contrary to faith... and is remedial in my view... not meant to be just some mean-spirited vindictiveness.... my pov from my Bible study.)
It's all based on perspective. And our experience determines our perspective. We know what we know based on what we have personally experienced.
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It's not offensive to me. I can't say I disbelieve because I don't want to either. I simply disbelieve because I find the evidence lacking to support the notion of a deity much less a specific deity. I'm a little pickier than that. Sorry.
You're honest. I respect that, personally.
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I'm sure if I believed with a heart of affection for Jesus as Savior that I'd be a Christian. That sort of goes hand in hand, doesn't it?
Exactly. Something happens on the inside of us to cause us to believe with a heart of affection. It goes hand in hand.
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But, I'm not going to believe just because it's the "in" thing to do or because I feel pressure in doing so. I need evidence, and no, simply reading the Bible is not evidence for me. I need truly unfathomable, with no other possible scenario, evidence that suggests Jesus is real and so far I haven't heard anything to suggest that he's anything but perhaps a character in a story who may or may not have actually lived. That's where I stand with Jesus.
If God loves you... and He's real... and He really has touched some with a heart of affection causing them to believe... then He will do the exact same thing for you someday as He's done for others causing them to believe.
You will not believe due to outside pressure. And no outside pressure can really create that inner affection and believing.
God will not hold it against you for all eternity that you did not believe - if inner faith and a heart of affection is really what you need.
He will give you everything you need to have a reconciled and restored relationship with Him if He truly loves you (which Christian faith says He does)... and will not punish you eternally for failing to do what was outside your power to do. No, He will give you that power someday - if that power is what He requires.
I think you are telling me the truth. And I appreciate your honesty. And I don't think any Christian is any better than you or has accomplished anything in and of themselves by believing - if believing is what is required to be a Christian.
I think we're all ultimately just the same. Meaning you deserve inherently our equal respect. That's my pov.
I was raised Catholic and currently don't follow any one religious faith. I do believe in something divine, and I'd like to spend the rest of my life learning and questioning and observing and loving all that we've been given.
My atheist fiance explained his atheism to me like this (and it made alot of sense to me - maybe not for others): following a religion requires faith - some people have that faith, others don't. Can you "get" faith? Sure. I don't know that he'd call it a choice to believe or not believe. We'll discuss that tonight, I think.
Interesting thread!! Thanks!!
Me too. I was raised Catholic and I left the church at 15 years old never to return but I still knew about GOD and spent my 20's and 30's checking out different religions. I settled on not belonging to any organized faith, just believing and having my own "faith" that God/Jesus and the Bible are true.
Hey, wait in a minute!! If someone was selling me a free lunch - I'd buy it! hee hee Just kidding... (see the humor??) Course, I'm always available for a free lunch if someone wants to invite me. Can we make it Italian?? hee hee
This just makes sense to me. If people are sitting and hearing the same message... and one person says, "Whoa, that doesn't sound right!" and another says, "wow, i've been touched on the inside with this inner faith and heart of affection for this message"...
Obviously something different happened inside each person as that message was spoken. Same message. Different result.
This is my pov. If that message was really true... and one person was given power to believe it... and another said, "no"... then there was a different variable in the shared experience of hearing the message. One believed. The other didn't.
And they chose accordingly. It's whether or not we believe the message... and what happens inside when the message is spoken that determines the outcome. It just makes sense to me to look at it that way.
Grace and peace,
Laura LeeLee
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Originally Posted by camping!
Now see, my experience was the exact opposite of yours. I remember sitting in church when I was about 7-9 years old, and thinking "whoa, that doesn't sound right! That sounds like someone is trying to sell me something....theres no such thing as a free lunch".....and that is the thought that has struck with me all these years later.
I am not going to presume to know what it feels like to obviously very sincere people when they talk about having Jesus intimately involved in their lives. I just don't believe it.
Thanks for your post Rachel. I hope you have an interesting discussion of faith. But where does a person get faith from to be a Christian?? The Bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So, for the Christian faith - faith comes from God speaking to our hearts by His Spirit through the Bible - which is His Word.
I know stories of many atheists coming to faith from reading the Bible for themselves... because of a power they can't explain. But, if not, then how do they "get faith"?? I just think it's not fair to evaluate people on the basis of "I have faith"... "you don't"... you're not trying hard enough! (Like in their own strength.)
To me, as a Christian - the Bible tells me that the only reason I have faith and others don't is because God by grace gave me faith that I didn't have.
And my Bible (which I personally believe - but I respect others even if they don't believe it)... says that God will give the same faith to all people some day. That's how I understand it - and that it's all by grace and God giving us that power to believe. We're supposed to view one another, the way I see it, as ultimately equal members of one family... with each answering not to "us" as Christians... but for ourselves. We're not to pressure or force anyone to agree. We're to let God work to give grace and faith when He does how He does in whatever way He does. It's our "job" to share the message we have gently and with respect... truly loving and accepting others as equals no matter what they believe... and trusting that God loves everyone just the same.
Then, we're to serve them. That's what we're supposed to do. Not argue,not debate, not judge... but serve others. It's something to really remember - because it's the example Jesus set.
Thanks for your post.
Grace and peace,
Laura LeeLee
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Originally Posted by rachelteehee
I was raised Catholic and currently don't follow any one religious faith. I do believe in something divine, and I'd like to spend the rest of my life learning and questioning and observing and loving all that we've been given.
My atheist fiance explained his atheism to me like this (and it made alot of sense to me - maybe not for others): following a religion requires faith - some people have that faith, others don't. Can you "get" faith? Sure. I don't know that he'd call it a choice to believe or not believe. We'll discuss that tonight, I think.
Me too. I was raised Catholic and I left the church at 15 years old never to return but I still knew about GOD and spent my 20's and 30's checking out different religions. I settled on not belonging to any organized faith, just believing and having my own "faith" that God/Jesus and the Bible are true.
2 Timothy 2:12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
What does this mean to me?? That there is a 1000 year reign of Christ that all who have endured and maintained and held their faith will participate in.
But the faithless, and the unbelieving, they will have their part in the lake of fire. Wait. The lake of fire, as I see it, is like the fire that God uses is purifying gold (which is faith). It's meant to bring out perfection out of imperfection.
The faithless? God will remain faithful to the faithless. He cannot disown Himself. The faithful, God, will bring faith to the faithless. As I see it, what happens to cause persons to participate in the 1000 year reign of Christ is one thing. What happens in eternity is another.
God, who is faithful, gives faith to the faithless. That's the only way, really, to have faith - as I see it. And, in the meantime, arguing with people because they don't have faith and are faithless in relation to Christian faith?? Why?? What do any of us have that we did not receive??
It's by grace that we are saved through faith - and this not of ourselves lest we should boast.
God gives faith to the faithless... because God is the God of all grace - as I see Him.. at least. God loves the unbelieving because that's exactly who He died to save, in my estimation. And we'll all believe someday... or God would be disowning Himself.
Jesus Christ, the Bible says, is the Savior of all men. If He didn't give faith to all the faithless - according to that - He'd be disowning Himself as the Savior of all men.
No one is going to convince me that God loves some people - and not others. No one is going to convince me that God is going to be faithful to some people - and not others. God is faithful... and that's universally true, in my Book - from my pov.
Ok, I'll get off my soap box.
Grace and peace,
Laura LeeLee
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Originally Posted by Marodi
I Knorr I was planing to enter the priesthood at ore time. However every reason I had other than as" insurance" was proven false. So, I become atheist
I also didn't make an actual choice about what to believe. From my point of view there has to be a reason to make any choice and the foundation beliefs of Christianity would require a massive amount of evidence to persuade me. I have had people ask me if I would like it to be true and then go on to suggest how I could start having faith a little bit at a time that would build upon itself until I became a believer. That's just not something I could do because I honestly feel that it's a process of self deception that many people practice. Of course there are millions of individuals who deeply believe in the Christian faith and they're obviously not faking it, my own Mother and sister are two of them. I guess I just look at life differently and reason, logic and the scientific method are what motivates me to believe as I do.
Most atheists were raised in religious families. I was myself.
It has nothing to do with not trying to believe in something. It's about a lack of evidence. There are even Christians who will admit that.
Christians believe in God created the universe
Atheist believe in the THEORY of the big bang
Both are belief systems whether you want to admit it or not.
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I sincerely do. One of my favorite profs in university was a Marxist atheist. He was wonderful. He was awesome. He was brilliant. He was very impassioned about the things he believed in and was sincere in his beliefs of helping humanity. 
