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What seems more reliable to you? People have transcendent experiences in a variety of ways. One way is mediation. Do you think that person has made contact with another sentient being or a sentient field of some sort or is it more likely a mind trick?
lets see ...
deity
living system (Like: some people have detected it but don't call it god)
system that matches alive more than not alive
some thing more
Past lives
no nothing more
Do you think that person has made contact with another sentient being or a sentient field of some sort
I put that above deity and no nothing on a relative reliability scale. I can make a case using QED and other science stuff but I am not sure I believe it yet. Is there a connection between life on this planet that some people think is something else?
Is it irrational to think there is a connection between all life on this planet? delusional? a made up fairy tale?
Its a maybe for me. Like: can a cell in you, if it was as complex as you, "detect" that its part of a larger system. I certainty hope it doesn't call me god. Unless it needed to, but don't oppresses other cells in my name tho. That aint cool.
I use the term "illusionary". Its something, it just may not be what we think it is.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 06-07-2022 at 06:01 PM..
deity
living system (Like: some people have detected it but don't call it god)
system that matches alive more than not alive
some thing more
Past lives
no nothing more
Do you think that person has made contact with another sentient being or a sentient field of some sort
I put that above deity and no nothing on a relative reliability scale. I can make a case using QED and other science stuff but I am not sure I believe it yet. Is there a connection between life on this planet that some people think is something else?
Is it irrational to think there is a connection between all life on this planet? delusional? a made up fairy tale?
Its a maybe for me. Like: can a cell in you, if it was as complex as you, "detect" that its part of a larger system.
I use the term "illusionary". Its something, it just may not be what we think it is.
Maybe it's God, maybe it's aliens, maybe it something from another demension, maybe it's our own minds mixing us an intoxicating cocktail. The later has the least assumptions. I detected agency in part of the whole thing but the actual transcendent experience only lasted seconds and I didn't detect agency. It felt like sunlight moving across a field and it washed over me and kept moving.
What seems more reliable to you? People have transcendent experiences in a variety of ways. One way is mediation. Do you think that person has made contact with another sentient being or a sentient field of some sort or is it more likely a mind trick?
And one must remember we know our mind plays tricks, we do not know any of these different gods exist. Using what we know increases reliability. Using what we do not know means at best, the chance of being correct is 50/50. You are either correct or you are wrong, and that is the best odds you can ever have if you have no evidence.
What seems more reliable to you? People have transcendent experiences in a variety of ways. One way is mediation. Do you think that person has made contact with another sentient being or a sentient field of some sort or is it more likely a mind trick?
The ability of the mind to produce compelling subjective experiences that can include a sense of transcendence or non-duality or contact with some sort of agency (benevolent or malevolent) is well known and studied and can even be induced by stimulating the relevant spot in the brain. So when you put that together with what is known about the physical world, it is more likely a trick of the mind.
That is not to say that it's impossible that some such experiences could have other explanations. It is just to say that it's unlikely.
The problem is that this invariably rains on the parade of people who are convinced otherwise. It is not personal or a judgment, at least coming from me, to say that I don't think other explanations to be at all likely. But people tend to confuse their personal identity with their beliefs and experiences and so when some outlier like an atheist comes along and says they are not buying it, it becomes some sort of existential threat.
Maybe it's God, maybe it's aliens, maybe it something from another demension, maybe it's our own minds mixing us an intoxicating cocktail. The later has the least assumptions. I detected agency in part of the whole thing but the actual transcendent experience only lasted seconds and I didn't detect agency. It felt like sunlight moving across a field and it washed over me and kept moving.
I tend to shy away from "agent only". We have to look at what "agent" means.
Can a cell in you "detect" an agent? That agent just being your "aliveness". Can all cells detect the same thing? Is a cell that can't detect "your aliveness" or doesn't "see it" based on observations have the final say?
How can we tell?
I look at maybe's in the context of other maybe's and try to see we we can sort out something out.
Look at you "sunlight" example. That is a single event in the system. Like when when we feel content after an event. Could a cell "detect" that the change in your feelings. To it, maybe it was just a wave of chemicals that pasted. Or a group of electrons.
so back we go.
1-deity
2-living system (Like: some people have detected it but don't call it god)
3-system that matches alive more than not alive
4-some thing more
5-Past lives
6-no nothing more
7-Alien
8-we see patterns where they do not exist sometimes.
9-we could be wrong
10-mind tricks
Where do they fit together? and why? On a relative reliability scale, about beliefs, put them in some kind of order.
I think people sense "some thing more" because there appears that we are in a vastly more complex system then humans. I used a crude measurement to support my beliefs.
What are you using to support yours? The notion that we could be wrong?
I think mystic belief are more reliable than deity, no nothing, mind tricks us, we could be wrong, and we mess up patters sometimes when we evaluate them based on a mechanism,. explanations, and predictions. Against knowns.
The ability of the mind to produce compelling subjective experiences that can include a sense of transcendence or non-duality or contact with some sort of agency (benevolent or malevolent) is well known and studied and can even be induced by stimulating the relevant spot in the brain. So when you put that together with what is known about the physical world, it is more likely a trick of the mind.
That is not to say that it's impossible that some such experiences could have other explanations. It is just to say that it's unlikely.
The problem is that this invariably rains on the parade of people who are convinced otherwise. It is not personal or a judgment, at least coming from me, to say that I don't think other explanations to be at all likely. But people tend to confuse their personal identity with their beliefs and experiences and so when some outlier like an atheist comes along and says they are not buying it, it becomes some sort of existential threat.
Correct. We have evidence of the mind playing tricks, we have no evidence consciousness can exist without a brain. That makes the mind playing games far more likely, especially when one uses all the other scientific and medical evidence.
Naturally I may be wrong, but until someone presents evidence that is better than what we currently have, I have no reason to believe anything else.
Of course there are those who have to deny all the evidence, and use every game they can to run away from the evidence, but that is not my problem.
How about the reverse. Seeing no patterns that are there. Is that a mind game also? Some people taking "patterns" that people do see, and turning them into non patterns?
Again, is there a process we can use to see who is who. To me, one way to sort out how "real" the perceived pattern is compare the "perceived" patterns to patters we know.
I forget the guys name with the subjective experience thing and experiencing "red". I even forget what he called it.
We can compare the perceived "red" pattern to patterns that we have identified before. We can compare the reaction to the perceived "red" pattern that people have had. We then start to group the reactions to the "perceived" pattern.
"consciousness out side of the mind". if we look, the human "mind" is a "pattern" within a larger set of "patterns". Its really a node of "brain patterns" in a system that completely connected making up a "system pattern". Is the universe processing information in a meaningful way using patterns? Well, it used patterns to make people. SO that is a clue,
I see people stating that they see no "thought" outside of the brain so that must mean there is no some thing more. To me, its like two big toe cells stating "I don't see any awareness out side of us. The patterns they see, or choose to not see for any number of reasons, is the only the only pattern they need to know.
How could we show to the two big toe cells that they are just part of a larger system. That I choose not to call god.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 06-11-2022 at 04:44 AM..
The ability of the mind to produce compelling subjective experiences that can include a sense of transcendence or non-duality or contact with some sort of agency (benevolent or malevolent) is well known and studied and can even be induced by stimulating the relevant spot in the brain. So when you put that together with what is known about the physical world, it is more likely a trick of the mind.
That is not to say that it's impossible that some such experiences could have other explanations. It is just to say that it's unlikely.
The problem is that this invariably rains on the parade of people who are convinced otherwise. It is not personal or a judgment, at least coming from me, to say that I don't think other explanations to be at all likely. But people tend to confuse their personal identity with their beliefs and experiences and so when some outlier like an atheist comes along and says they are not buying it, it becomes some sort of existential threat.
We just make different assumptions about the existence of the brain as the manifestation that provides information about Reality so that we can relate successfully to it. The fact that certain areas of the brain are the ones that provide certain information when stimulated by doctors applying electrical stimulation simply means that they work as they should. It says nothing about the fact that they detect stimulation NOT purposely applied and interpret it. To me, that suggests that whatever is stimulating it is REAL but not normally accessible to us as is a doctor applying electrical stimulation.
that's when we need to start making comparisons. Compare what we think is a pattern to knowns patterns and discuss.
Of course that means a belief in some thing more becomes way more reliable then the reverse. And needs to be hushed. be that as it may.
I see your interpretation like looking down at a pot of boiling water but not seeing the flame. The vibrations of the molecules is like our consciousness. The energy from the flame (well, the flame is energy, but you know what I mean) is the animating force. The vibrations are what we are calling the "temperature field". So you say there is a "vibration field". When in reality the vibrations are a result of the net force(s).
Comparing patterns to others patterns and discussing will be avoided here.
It tends to expose less reliable positions when we actually measure what "patterns" we are describing. We actually start to pin point what patterns aren't there and what patterns are there. Trying to divert people from measurements is what "religion-ist" type people do. I call them, in my side of the argument, atheist fundamentalist. They talk in circles to avoid, distract, cloud the real issues for them.
So the question is why are some people here. seeking more understanding about our place in the system around us? Or are we here for something else?
Like bashing religion all day every day for years and years and years and years ...
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