Belief in God drops to 81%, an all-time low (verse, science, created)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So under your God creation where did the matter for the Universe come from?
Read Lawrence Krause book The Universe from Nothing if you actually want to find out what is meant by nothing.
I did not do an atheist two step. I tried to make sure that you did not equate evolution and the Big Band as being essential to atheism. This post of yours shows you came here to mock atheists and not have a dialogue. You do not seem to want to understand just attack..
Fine, if you are not interested in hearing what we have to say I for one will leave you in peace. You have tried to contribute nothing towards a discussion so be it. Bye.
This guy is so transparent. No matter what any of us said, he'd say we didn't answer his question or that we aren't openminded, or some other excuse. He's not here to ask questions.
This guy is so transparent. No matter what any of us said, he'd say we didn't answer his question or that we aren't openminded, or some other excuse. He's not here to ask questions.
No I think he is here to feel good and smug about himself. Shame because it might have been interesting.
I'm just now posting and didn't read the other posts but just this one. It contained...
"If we die and its lights out forever, than think of what a privilege it was to have had this chance against such incredible odds in such a volatile environment."
Actually, if it was honest, the odds show it was impossible for this to happen by chance.
First you need to do the actual mathematics. Show your work. And if we treat your hypothesis with the same logic, if we are honest, your god is even more improbable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnysig
It was likely brought up many times in this forum, but at least the God of the bible is not shy how He created, He spoke it into being. There was nothing and He gave something and the steps taken to do that and the time schedule.
There's a lot of truth to that punchline that goes, "And God said, go get your own dirt." In this case, starting from step one, "And God said, go get your own universe."
Look at the so-called science that is brought up showing creation happened naturally, it starts with something there already. They call it "nothing" but it does not take much to see, it's really something. I've NEVER seen anyone truly start with nothing, no space, matter, and time then give science how that somehow created something by natural means.
So if absolute nothing is not even possible, then logically there must have always been something, so no god is required to explain existence. and we know natural laws, the attributes of existence can create complexity, so again we do not need to argue a god that you simply assert exists.
And if you have a problem with something always just existing for no reason, that problem also applies to your god.
And if you are arguing absolute nothing is possible, and your god created everything by speaking things into existence, you are contradicting yourself, because absolute nothing means absolutely nothing, including any gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnysig
Look at what even Ann said in regards to Carl....
"We knew we were beneficiaries of chance. . . . That pure chance could be so generous and so kind. . . ."
How did she know that? I've NEVER seen anything Carl or Ann gave to know that.
Go ahead, clue me in. Just don't start with something and then bash me for not knowing what I'm talking about. Actually start with truly nothing and how it created naturally.
If absolutely nothing existed, then that includes the laws saying how absolutely nothing must behave. The tired argument that one can not get something from nothing would not exist.
Thanks and I'm really trying to follow you. Why would it mean nothing to non-believers? Are they 'exempt' from such thoughts how we got all this by chance? From what was written as I showed, their praise and thankfulness is to their god chance or odds. Sure, they don't believe in any god but in reality they sure do and yet they never explain with evidence.
We have all the evidence. You (plural) never explain with evidence, you just assert things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnysig
I'll even go further, personally, I've found once a person allows such absurdity of a natural creation, they'll do it with what follows too. My motto is the last person I want to fool is myself. If such thoughts as creation (not to mention with what follows) are not dealt with honestly, isn't a person out to fool themselves?
The absurdity is asserting sans evidence that a god somehow did it, but I agree with the rest of section of your post.
Again, you just give assumptions to fill in space. Let me know when you are dealing with what I gave and not what you think I gave.
How did any of what you gave show that creation can happen from nothing? Why can't people read anymore?
If absolutely nothing is possible, what is to stop spontaneous creation? Nothing, because in this scenario, there is absolutely nothing to say how absolutely nothing will behave.
The only assumption is your assertion that a god exists, with no explanation as to how your god did anything, why it even exists, how it just knows precise details about how to create fine tuned universes, or cells, or balanced ecosystems.
This was somehow an ANSWER to how we got creation from nothing?!!
"Well, from our point of view, you are fooling yourself based merely on the culture you were born into."
Wow, lying is sure the go-to in this forum.
Oh, and look at this great answer too...
"The first thing you need to know is that not all atheists accept the Big Bang or the Theory of Evolution and many theists do."
How did that answer a thing? Not just that, it's the FIRST think I NEED to know. Oh look, lying and strawman tactics. We sure have an honest group here.
In all I gave, I ended with....Actually start with truly nothing and how it created naturally.
Well, look at the atheistic two-step. You all know how to do the dance so well. Look at more great dancing from you all avoiding what was asked of you...
"We don't believe in god and you cannot prove god."
You can't prove you can read. You can two-step, but you love fooling yourself. How did that answer how creation happened naturally? Oh, it didn't. Its the.....atheistic two-step. Gather round folks and see more of the dance....
"Believe what you wish. But let's put it this way. If you were born in Saudi Arabia would you believe in the chrsitian god? No. If you were born in Thailand would you believe in the christian god? No. If you were born in India, would you believe in the christian god? No.
You are coming from a christian-centric culture...and you don't seem to be able to see beyond that bubble."
Give a round of applause. That was some great two-stepping right there. That is some well-practiced avoiding what was asked. That takes a lot of practice fooling yourself to get to that level.
And how do you like that big finale?!!....
".......and you don't seem to be able to see beyond that bubble."
Wow, don't answer a thing but act like you're smart enough anyway.
It's ALWAYS the same with your type, dance, dance, dance. Just dance reality away is all you do.
Can't wait to see more useless word fill-ins with that famous atheistic two-step.
Ignoring your dishonest rant, we have over 2000 years of evidence that always points to naturalism. It is never a god did it.
You texts that say Saint Peter resurrected a cooked fish, and arguments for your god that when looked at honestly either say your god is the least probable explanation, or are arguments against your god.
The burden of proof is on the positive claim. Are you claiming that a deity -- doubtless yours -- created the universe? Prove it. If not ... what ARE you claiming?
What don't I understand? Are you telling me there is a possible way I'm not aware of that nothing can create the universe? Interesting you don't supply that. Actually, it's VERY common for your side.
Now this shows how low you all go. It's 2022 and we're actually asking for proof that nothing cannot create by natural means. For sane people like me, I about have to pinch myself that this is an argument to atheistic types.
So, let me teach you some BASIC science since your common sense doesn't kick in.
Real science says nothing does nothing. Real science says if there was something there already it must fit with the evidence of what we know. We know the 1LT says there's a conservation of energy. It can change forms and neither can be created or destroyed. Creation cannot happen by natural means. The 2LT has various aspects, one being the universe is winding down, entropy. Usable energy is becoming less usable, so at one point usable energy was at its max. This all (the 1LT and 2LT) points to a supernatural creation, by a supernatural creator at a certain point in which matter, space, and time were created. When I read how it can happen otherwise, ALL the doubters resort to science-fiction. Once a supernatural creation is accepted, then the next step is finding proof of what supernatural power did it. We KNOW these laws. We have NO doubts about them.
Hope you learned something. Sorry, I didn't realize I had to give such an explanation to adults.
So can someone let me know what month or year someone thought this through that can explain with proof that something can come from nothing...no space, matter, and time?
What don't I understand? Are you telling me there is a possible way I'm not aware of that nothing can create the universe? Interesting you don't supply that. Actually, it's VERY common for your side.
Now this shows how low you all go. It's 2022 and we're actually asking for proof that nothing cannot create by natural means. For sane people like me, I about have to pinch myself that this is an argument to atheistic types.
So, let me teach you some BASIC science since your common sense doesn't kick in.
Real science says nothing does nothing. Real science says if there was something there already it must fit with the evidence of what we know. We know the 1LT says there's a conservation of energy. It can change forms and neither can be created or destroyed. Creation cannot happen by natural means. The 2LT has various aspects, one being the universe is winding down, entropy. Usable energy is becoming less usable, so at one point usable energy was at its max. This all (the 1LT and 2LT) points to a supernatural creation, by a supernatural creator at a certain point in which matter, space, and time were created. When I read how it can happen otherwise, ALL the doubters resort to science-fiction. Once a supernatural creation is accepted, then the next step is finding proof of what supernatural power did it. We KNOW these laws. We have NO doubts about them.
Hope you learned something. Sorry, I didn't realize I had to give such an explanation to adults.
So can someone let me know what month or year someone thought this through that can explain with proof that something can come from nothing...no space, matter, and time?
Aaaand you repeat your argument from incredulity rather than answer the question.
But I guess you are indirectly answering without meaning to because buried in this wall o'text is the claim that a god -- and not just any god, yours -- created the universe. So prove it. That is the positive claim.
Science has hypotheses (which you are dishonestly representing) about how it happened, and you don't like them. I get that. But that is not relevant to your claim. Prove that your specific god exists and we'll move on from there. Next you would have to prove your specific god not only exists, but created everything. From there you would have to prove rather than assert that he has legitimate claims on us and is worthy of respect, worship, etc.
You have some heavy lifting to do, but it should not be difficult for you judging from your enthusiasm for the idea -- you must have evidence that we have overlooked! So go ahead and get started. We'll wait.
So under your God creation where did the matter for the Universe come from?
Read Lawrence Krause book The Universe from Nothing if you actually want to find out what is meant by nothing.
I did not do an atheist two step. I tried to make sure that you did not equate evolution and the Big Band as being essential to atheism. This post of yours shows you came here to mock atheists and not have a dialogue. You do not seem to want to understand just attack..
Fine, if you are not interested in hearing what we have to say I for one will leave you in peace. You have tried to contribute nothing towards a discussion so be it. Bye.
Just part of what I had in my first comment....Look at the so-called science that is brought up showing creation happened naturally, it starts with something there already. They call it "nothing" but it does not take much to see, it's really something. I've NEVER seen anyone truly start with nothing, no space, matter, and time then give science how that somehow created something by natural means.
And in the closing of what I gave....Go ahead, clue me in. Just don't start with something and then bash me for not knowing what I'm talking about. Actually start with truly nothing and how it created naturally.
Here's another trait of atheistic types besides their fear of thinking honestly, you all can't read. Go ahead and ban me for being so insulting but how else can I say it?
Look at this after I made it CLEAR --I've NEVER seen anyone truly start with nothing, no space, matter, and time then give science how that somehow created something by natural means......
"Read Lawrence Krause book The Universe from Nothing if you actually want to find out what is meant by nothing."
And do YOU know what he meant?! Well then since you don't, he started with space, matter, and time already there. That's why you all can't read. You ALL actually start with a creation there already then you continue with the science fiction of how it created more space, matter, and time.
And the thing is, you refuse to admit that. You can't get around nothing, so you call something nothing. Then when pressed about what was done, you admit it's something but fool yourselves it's actually nothing. That's all you're doing is fooling yourself. You need to make things up to satisfy your strong desire to believe in the absurd. You can't deny it, you made it CLEAR you just did it.
"I did not do an atheist two step. I tried to make sure that you did not equate evolution and the Big Band as being essential to atheism. This post of yours shows you came here to mock atheists and not have a dialogue. You do not seem to want to understand just attack.."
No, you are lying. You wanted to fill in space accusing me of things I never brought up so you can strawman me. How do you want me to handle it? You can mock me using strawman and I have to sit here an take it? Then you have the wrong person for that. My first comment was clear and respectful, and what I got in return was disrespect. It I wrote "First off, you need to know 2 + 2 = 4." Then I tell you I just wanted to be sure you know certain things. Go use your silly arguments on those slow enough to believe you.
Let me know when anyone in this forum actually gave creation thought since NONE of you are showing that thus far. AGAIN, nothing is no space, matter, and time. To start with that there already, only shows you need to start with creation already there. As always, you're just another atheistic two-stepper doing the dance you all need to do because your stuck and refuse to face reality.
"You have tried to contribute nothing towards a discussion so be it."
You're actually correct. I have tried to contribute nothing to this discussion.....because NONE of you start with NOTHING and I need to clue you in what nothing is. Wow, I need to explain that over, and over, and over, and....
Just part of what I had in my first comment....Look at the so-called science that is brought up showing creation happened naturally, it starts with something there already.
In order for the universe to be created as you imagine, you accomplish nothing by ridiculing what you think is the science behind alternate hypotheses, because you have not established that your god (1) exists and (2) created everything so that (3) we could establish you even have a better idea about creation.
It is really irrelevant if you find other explanations for the origin of existence to be unsatisfying. What matters is whether YOUR explanation holds any water. Otherwise it is YOU who are straw-manning and then projecting it on us.
Let us say for the sake of argument that I think the universe was created by a leprechaun. How is my claim any less valid than yours that it was created by a god -- and just conveniently, yours? Why is your god different from a leprechaun or a tooth fairy?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
