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I have looked, the different cultural experiences suggest they are a cultural product of the mind, not genuine visits to heaven or hell. And there was also a science paper that suggested NDEs are constructed after the event, unfortunately I did not read it at the time, and now I can not find it.
The thing is, if an atheist has not investigated NDEs, then they have insufficient information to move them one way or the other. One should only use information that one has.
Good point. I have probably read 20 articles about NDEs over time. It's interesting. Something to think about. But for me, not yet to the level of, 'Oh, I have to change my mind about the overall topic'. Being open-minded doesn't mean that you just change your mind; it means that you think new information over and see how it fits into your life perspective.
Oh I do question the story. The point here is how atheists deal with it,or more to the point, would they even bother giving this any due consideration, not whether it is actually provably true. I am aware that in many ways conservative Christians with a religious agenda are about the least trustworthy people out there.
As far as awareness continuing after the death of our physical bodies, from a scientific stance I really dont see a problem with this. Science teaches us that in the end everything is just seemingly solidified energy. I dont have a problem accepting that energy can continue after the demise of the physical body.
Yet you are arguing for the story's veracity. Without, I note, citing where you read it. Maybe you made the whole thing up?
Why should I bother dealing with a story that may or may not be factual? You want me to take something seriously, give me something serious to gnaw on. Just ask the question about mental survival survival in the face of physical death, and skip the (very pious) story.
From a scientific stance, energy is constantly on the move. Configurations are always transitory. What would hold an individual configuration together after the physical connections were no longer extant? Are you saying that when - for instance - an electrified house is torn down that the circuits still exist somewhere, independent of the actual wires?
No, of course not, admittedly I am taking Mystic at his word, and accepting that his state of mind was more stable. Obviously not even he attempts to submit that as bone-a-fide evidence. Could some random guy on an internet forum simply be a better story teller, certainly, I doubt Mystic expects anyone to accept his story as proof anymore than your story about experiencing a previous life.
Actually Mystic is very adamant about his experience and seems to be expecting everyone to just take him at his word. If a personal experience makes you want to believe there is a god, then ok. I don't accept that and neither does a lot of other non-believers. Sharing your personal experience is one thing, but having expectations that everyone should believe because of your experience is quite delusional.
It's very obvious how he tries to intimidate people by his big words and PhD at the end of his moniker. Master manipulator. Oh and let's not forget he is a psychologist and he has insight into everyone's very soul. I would not say his state of mind was any more stable than anyone else who claims belief in a god because of a personal experience.
Actually Mystic is very adamant about his experience and seems to be expecting everyone to just take him at his word. If a personal experience makes you want to believe there is a god, then ok. I don't accept that and neither does a lot of other non-believers. Sharing your personal experience is one thing, but having expectations that everyone should believe because of your experience is quite delusional.
It's very obvious how he tries to intimidate people by his big words and PhD at the end of his moniker. Master manipulator. Oh and let's not forget he is a psychologist and he has insight into everyone's very soul. I would not say his state of mind was any more stable than anyone else who claims belief in a god because of a personal experience.
IDK, maybe that has happened, I haven't read all of his 10s of thousands of posts. The sentiment I mostly see from him is that he believes his experiences have caused him to view things differently, and he tries to get people to understand his newfound concepts, more so than believe the experiences must be taken as demonstrable evidence itself. He also behaves as though we don't understand what he is saying because if we did we would not reject his POV, as though it is so compelling that, to understand it is to embrace it, not unlike christianity. It couldn't possibly be that we just simply disagree that his position is correct.
Actually Mystic is very adamant about his experience and seems to be expecting everyone to just take him at his word. If a personal experience makes you want to believe there is a god, then ok. I don't accept that and neither does a lot of other non-believers. Sharing your personal experience is one thing, but having expectations that everyone should believe because of your experience is quite delusional.
It's very obvious how he tries to intimidate people by his big words and PhD at the end of his moniker. Master manipulator. Oh and let's not forget he is a psychologist and he has insight into everyone's very soul. I would not say his state of mind was any more stable than anyone else who claims belief in a god because of a personal experience.
You have seriously misread me and my posts. I have nothing but respect for your public journey out of fundamentalism in this forum. Why you would want to hide from it does confuse me. It is an awesome achievement. I can understand why you might think that my belief in God somehow indicates a delusional and unstable mind, but it was not your belief in God that produced that. It was the primitive, barbaric, and ignorant beliefs ABOUT God in fundamentalism that did so. I have no agenda to "manipulate" and my use of "big words" is a lifelong professorial habit. My Ph.D. is part of who I am as is my Mysticism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
IDK, maybe that has happened, I haven't read all of his 10s of thousands of posts. The sentiment I mostly see from him is that he believes his experiences have caused him to view things differently, and he tries to get people to understand his newfound concepts, more so than believe the experiences must be taken as demonstrable evidence itself. He also behaves as though we don't understand what he is saying because if we did we would not reject his POV, as though it is so compelling that, to understand it is to embrace it, not unlike Christianity. It couldn't possibly be that we just simply disagree that his position is correct.
This is a more reasonable interpretation of my views and the issues I face with explaining and defending them in this forum. The knowledge on which much of my Synthesis is based is NOT general knowledge.
As others have pointed out, I would want to see the actual account from the person’s perspective. Self-reported supernatural experiences (whether or not the reporter believes the truth of the matters asserted) are prone to enough problems to begin with, based on the subjective and malleable nature of human memory. Having this information relayed second- or third- or fourth-hand makes things even worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencgr
I would need 100% proof that this child did not know about the miscarriages, and that is impossible to confirm. Perhaps Dad said something as he lay dying in the wreckage. We will never know.
Also, how many eight-year-olds understand the meaning of a miscarriage? I won’t say literally none, because that would be silly, but it seems like an odd thing for someone that young to know about unless someone close to them (say, their mother) told them about it. And did this child use the word “miscarriage,†or did he say something like “tiny, weird, baby-looking thing†that was interpreted to be recognition of a miscarriage? Again, this is why original accounts are important.
That energy continues is not the problem, it is how it is organized that is. How would this conscious energy field work, how would it stay coherent, how would it sense it's surroundings with no eyes, ears, fingers, etc?
Just so. I really do not understand why so many so willfully ignore the actual issue. My molecules and atoms will still exist after I die. So what. They will not be organized so as to be recognizably "me". The energy behind my life processes will dissipate and no longer be devoted to keeping me alive.
Indeed, I consist of atoms that were once part of other persons and animals and plants, and my life force is energy that was once involved in other completely unrelated processes. So it will be after I die.
The fact that "energy continues" is totally irrelevant. Yet people treat it like some kind of deep truth, some wise realization that makes an afterlife a fait accompli. 'Tain't so.
You have seriously misread me and my posts. I have nothing but respect for your public journey out of fundamentalism in this forum. Why you would want to hide from it does confuse me. It is an awesome achievement. I can understand why you might think that my belief in God somehow indicates a delusional and unstable mind, but it was not your belief in God that produced that. It was the primitive, barbaric, and ignorant beliefs ABOUT God in fundamentalism that did so. I have no agenda to "manipulate" and my use of "big words" is a lifelong professorial habit. My Ph.D. is part of who I am as is my Mysticism.
This is a more reasonable interpretation of my views and the issues I face with explaining and defending them in this forum. The knowledge on which much of my Synthesis is based is NOT general knowledge.
Ok, Mystic. Truce? I asked and you did not honor my request. That was my issue with you. I'm just real tired of holier-than-thou people that think they are superior because their IQ is higher than most. Two male friends have become non-friends because of their radical thinking and conspiracy theories. It's one reason I'm thinking my political holdings are....in question.
I'm sure you do have a very high IQ and I can respect that, just like my ex-friend who chose his radical conspiracy theories over our 52 year friendship. We knew each other since we were children. Sad but true.
It's what I was looking for from you. So were a lot of other people.
Just so. I really do not understand why so many so willfully ignore the actual issue. My molecules and atoms will still exist after I die. So what. They will not be organized so as to be recognizably "me". The energy behind my life processes will dissipate and no longer be devoted to keeping me alive.
Indeed, I consist of atoms that were once part of other persons and animals and plants, and my life force is energy that was once involved in other completely unrelated processes. So it will be after I die.
The fact that "energy continues" is totally irrelevant. Yet people treat it like some kind of deep truth, some wise realization that makes an afterlife a fait accompli. 'Tain't so.
You are mistaken primarily because the kind of energy you are comprised of (your actual Self) is part of the 95+% of energy in the universe that is NOT directly measurable by science. We cannot track it to know if it dissipates or not. However, it is unlikely that it does. It is part of what is expanding our universe.
Just so. I really do not understand why so many so willfully ignore the actual issue. My molecules and atoms will still exist after I die. So what. They will not be organized so as to be recognizably "me". The energy behind my life processes will dissipate and no longer be devoted to keeping me alive.
Indeed, I consist of atoms that were once part of other persons and animals and plants, and my life force is energy that was once involved in other completely unrelated processes. So it will be after I die.
The fact that "energy continues" is totally irrelevant. Yet people treat it like some kind of deep truth, some wise realization that makes an afterlife a fait accompli. 'Tain't so.
I do not think they willfully ignore the issues, they simply do not think about them. They have an idea of who they are in their head, and this idea has eyes and hands because people have eyes and hands. So when they think of this image of themselves outside of their body as a spirit, that too has eyes and hands.
And if they believe in souls, they have no reason to question themselves, because it is something they 'know' to be true.
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No, of course not, admittedly I am taking Mystic at his word, and accepting that his state of mind was more stable. Obviously not even he attempts to submit that as bone-a-fide evidence. Could some random guy on an internet forum simply be a better story teller, certainly, I doubt Mystic expects anyone to accept his story as proof anymore than your story about experiencing a previous life.
I would not say his state of mind was any more stable than anyone else who claims belief in a god because of a personal experience.
