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Yes I know, energy that is conveniently invisible, unmeasurable and undetectable yet despite this you somehow KNOW that it is 95% of what you or I are. It is a variation on a god of the gaps argument.
Except that we DO have INDIRECT evidence it exists based on what we can measure. That is not the same as a complete unknown as is usually associated with the accusation of God of the Gaps. What makes it relevant to the God concept is its massivity (potentially infinite).
Except that we DO have INDIRECT evidence it exists based on what we can measure. That is not the same as a complete unknown as is usually associated with the accusation of God of the Gaps. What makes it relevant to the God concept is its massivity (potentially infinite).
Dark matter has been indirectly detected and is thought to be a significant part of what makes up the universe. Beyond that we don't know a great deal. Happily assuming some relationship to universal consciousness / god / whatever is pointing to our lack of mastery in a particular area of understanding and offering up your ideas to provide "answers". That is the very essence of god of the gaps arguments, regardless of whether something is very large or "potentially infinite".
When we eventually understand dark matter and its place in physics, I can guarantee that understanding will come from physicists, not theologians.
Thank you for going through this again for my benefit. I wanted to see where you were coming from. I too experienced something incredibly powerful that it has left an imprint on me that will always be there. It is hard to put into words, but for those few hours, I was in a state whereby I felt such incredible love and connection to the universe. I don't know who the presence was but its power was consuming and beautiful.
Every one of us has a story who went through a life changing event so again - thanks for providing yours!
For me, I'm still on the fence but who knows what is in store and if i'll have another spiritual journey that will put me on the other side.
In the meantime, I appreciate the input from everyone in this part of C/D. Most individuals in here, who are on both sides and in the middle, are good people being honest with how they think and feel.
IMO, transcendent experiences are available to every human. It's a function of how we're wired.
When where and why we have these experiences has to do with our individual histories. They don't necessarily tell us anything about what is really going on here, except metaphorically.
IMO, transcendent experiences are available to every human. It's a function of how we're wired.
When where and why we have these experiences has to do with our individual histories. They don't necessarily tell us anything about what is really going on here, except metaphorically.
There is nothing particular about my experience that I can link to my particular history. That said, I accept the fact they are available to every human and every human will have a different experience. There are some commonalities and obviously parts of the brain are engaged in these experiences and in many cases, there is a spiritual element a sort of 'guide' through the experience if you will. How one takes that is entirely up to him. If it isn't filed as any type of evidence is entirely fine with me - a moot point to me really..
Except that we DO have INDIRECT evidence it exists based on what we can measure. That is not the same as a complete unknown as is usually associated with the accusation of God of the Gaps. What makes it relevant to the God concept is its massivity (potentially infinite).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Dark matter has been indirectly detected and is thought to be a significant part of what makes up the universe. Beyond that we don't know a great deal. Happily assuming some relationship to universal consciousness / god / whatever is pointing to our lack of mastery in a particular area of understanding and offering up your ideas to provide "answers". That is the very essence of god of the gaps arguments, regardless of whether something is very large or "potentially infinite".
When we eventually understand dark matter and its place in physics, I can guarantee that understanding will come from physicists, not theologians.
I agree it will come from physicists who will become theologians by default! Did you ever watch Cosmos with Carl Sagan and the "tiny Blue Dot"? You realize that everything we can and do measure and discover is occurring on that "tiny Blue Dot" in the otherwise unmeasurable and unfathomable vastness of our Reality, right?
That means the evidence and information you are using is from even less of our Reality than the 5% we estimate is measurable in that vastness. Don't you think it is a little arrogant to presume we have the slightest clue what our Reality actually IS given the paucity of evidence and information from our vantage point on that "tiny Blue Dot"????
I agree it will come from physicists who will become theologians by default! Did you ever watch Cosmos with Carl Sagan and the "tiny Blue Dot"? You realize that everything we can and do measure and discover is occurring on that "tiny Blue Dot" in the otherwise unmeasurable and unfathomable vastness of our Reality, right?
That means the evidence and information you are using is from even less of our Reality than the 5% we estimate is measurable in that vastness. Don't you think it is a little arrogant to presume we have the slightest clue what our Reality actually IS given the paucity of evidence and information from our vantage point on that "tiny Blue Dot"????
No, no, no. Although the vastness of the Cosmos is pretty much unfathomable to most of us, it is indeed measurable. Astronomers know how far it is to each of those little dots in the sky, and how big each of them really is.
Knowing that there are stars, planets, and galaxies that we can't see has absolutely nothing to do with whether anybody knows what "reality" is. All you are dong is confusing things when you try to redefine the term.
I agree it will come from physicists who will become theologians by default! Did you ever watch Cosmos with Carl Sagan and the "tiny Blue Dot"? You realize that everything we can and do measure and discover is occurring on that "tiny Blue Dot" in the otherwise unmeasurable and unfathomable vastness of our Reality, right?
That means the evidence and information you are using is from even less of our Reality than the 5% we estimate is measurable in that vastness. Don't you think it is a little arrogant to presume we have the slightest clue what our Reality actually IS given the paucity of evidence and information from our vantage point on that "tiny Blue Dot"????
Yes, so stop saying it's God. You don't know that and have zero evidence to backup your claim, your claim is supported by arrogance alone.
Dark matter has been indirectly detected and is thought to be a significant part of what makes up the universe. Beyond that we don't know a great deal. Happily assuming some relationship to universal consciousness / god / whatever is pointing to our lack of mastery in a particular area of understanding and offering up your ideas to provide "answers". That is the very essence of god of the gaps arguments, regardless of whether something is very large or "potentially infinite".
When we eventually understand dark matter and its place in physics, I can guarantee that understanding will come from physicists, not theologians.
In research published in November in the Astrophysical Journal, the scientists report tiny discrepancies in the orbital speeds of distant stars that they think reveals a faint gravitational effect – and one that could put an end to the prevailing ideas of dark matter.
The study suggests an incomplete scientific understanding of gravity is behind what appears to be the gravitational strength of galaxies and galaxy clusters, rather than vast clouds of dark matter.
That might mean pure mathematics, and not invisible matter, could explain why galaxies behave as they do, said study co-author Stacy McGaugh, who heads the astronomy department at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland.
Don't you think it is a little arrogant to presume we have the slightest clue what our Reality actually IS given the paucity of evidence and information from our vantage point on that "tiny Blue Dot"????
I just admitted we don't know that much about dark matter. That, plus my unwillingness to even speculate beyond that strikes me as sufficiently humble. You on the other hand are pretty adamant in your speculations.
In research published in November in the Astrophysical Journal, the scientists report tiny discrepancies in the orbital speeds of distant stars that they think reveals a faint gravitational effect – and one that could put an end to the prevailing ideas of dark matter.
The study suggests an incomplete scientific understanding of gravity is behind what appears to be the gravitational strength of galaxies and galaxy clusters, rather than vast clouds of dark matter.
That might mean pure mathematics, and not invisible matter, could explain why galaxies behave as they do, said study co-author Stacy McGaugh, who heads the astronomy department at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland.
Yes, we have to keep in mind that dark matter itself is a hypothesis, and not fully vetted. It may prove to be completely wrong. To explain why we can't detect dark matter locally, we have to come up with theories of it not being uniformly distributed everywhere in space, all of which have always sounded a bit suspect to me. If the universe is some high percentage of dark matter, we ought to be stubbing our toe on it, and the reasons why we aren't strike me as contrived, more so than "if life should be ubiquitous, why haven't we encountered aliens yet". Alien life, particularly intelligent civilizations, would be relatively rare and isolated by the challenge and scope of traversing vast distances. But dark matter can't conveniently not be all around us where we happen to be, without it seeming like special pleading.
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Did you ever watch Cosmos with Carl Sagan and the "tiny Blue Dot"? You realize that everything we can and do measure and discover is occurring on that "tiny Blue Dot" in the otherwise unmeasurable and unfathomable vastness of our Reality, right? 
