Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, it isn't "part of the bible." The idea that God was a "tyrant" is a faulty conclusion caused by hubris. It's no different than pronouncing someone 'guilty' without knowing all of the facts.
I think you're playing fast and loose with what's actually in the Bible.
You can contort yourself to say that it wasn't cruel for example to kill off almost the entire human race in the flood, or to encourage joy in those dashing an enemy's children against the rocks, or to keep women as spoils of war for purposes essentially of being sex slaves. There are any number of ways to spin that; all of them require that one discount or even deny a choice in how it was written up, and to equivocate about the morality depicted.
Pointing this out isn't incompatible with appreciating specific parts of the Bible that are of a better character and quality. For example, I memorized I Cor 13 as a pre-teen and it remains a personal favorite. I would have to be equivocating in the other direction to deny that it represents a very advanced understanding of and attitude towards love.
In that spirit, can you not admit that god, as often (not always, but also not rarely) depicted in the OT, is of low character? Cranky, vengeful, spiteful, sadistic, jealous, petty and proud of it? This in no way prevents you from salvaging or cherry picking the god you prefer out of that mess ... but I can't imagine how you cannot see it there in plain writing.
I think you're playing fast and loose with what's actually in the Bible.
You can contort yourself to say that it wasn't cruel for example to kill off almost the entire human race in the flood, or to encourage joy in those dashing an enemy's children against the rocks, or to keep women as spoils of war for purposes essentially of being sex slaves. There are any number of ways to spin that; all of them require that one discount or even deny a choice in how it was written up, and to equivocate about the morality depicted.
Pointing this out isn't incompatible with appreciating specific parts of the Bible that are of a better character and quality. For example, I memorized I Cor 13 as a pre-teen and it remains a personal favorite. I would have to be equivocating in the other direction to deny that it represents a very advanced understanding of and attitude towards love.
In that spirit, can you not admit that god, as often (not always, but also not rarely) depicted in the OT, is of low character? Cranky, vengeful, spiteful, sadistic, jealous, petty and proud of it? This in no way prevents you from salvaging or cherry-picking the god you prefer out of that mess ... but I can't imagine how you cannot see it there in plain writing.
The God our primitive and savage ancestors believed in is described in the OT. But the descriptions are THEIR misguided and misbegotten beliefs ABOUT God, NOT accurate interpretations of divine inspirations! The only reliable depictions of God and His True Nature are those of Jesus, IMO. At least, His consciousness as described matches the one I encountered and is why I adopted Christianity, NOT the primitive and barbaric descriptions in the Jewish fables.
I think you're playing fast and loose with what's actually in the Bible.
You can contort yourself to say that it wasn't cruel for example to kill off almost the entire human race in the flood, or to encourage joy in those dashing an enemy's children against the rocks, or to keep women as spoils of war for purposes essentially of being sex slaves. There are any number of ways to spin that; all of them require that one discount or even deny a choice in how it was written up, and to equivocate about the morality depicted.
Pointing this out isn't incompatible with appreciating specific parts of the Bible that are of a better character and quality. For example, I memorized I Cor 13 as a pre-teen and it remains a personal favorite. I would have to be equivocating in the other direction to deny that it represents a very advanced understanding of and attitude towards love.
In that spirit, can you not admit that god, as often (not always, but also not rarely) depicted in the OT, is of low character? Cranky, vengeful, spiteful, sadistic, jealous, petty and proud of it? This in no way prevents you from salvaging or cherry picking the god you prefer out of that mess ... but I can't imagine how you cannot see it there in plain writing.
Oh Mordant, I've read the same bible you have. The difference is that I don't see His actions as "cranky, vengeful, spiteful, sadistic, etc."
Did Genesis say that God wiped out most of the human race through a flood? Yes.
Was it "cruel" for God to do this? Nope. So, why don't I think it was "cruel"?
Because I don't have God's knowledge, so I don't know what God's plan was/is. Since I don't have all the facts, I don't get to judge or even condemn God's behavior, especially by my human 'standards'...which are inferior to that of God's.
If I judge God, I am setting myself above Him. What right do I have to do that? I don't know nearly as much as God does, so HOW can I judge Him?
God just might have a darn good reason for doing some of the unpleasant things as depicted in the bible. Until I know what those reasons are, I'm not about to judge.
You need to stop twisting words until they're unrecognizable. That's not even close to what I said or meant.
I'm really not twisting it. This started out with your comment about 'if you can get past'. How do you get past some of the violence and killing either committed by god or supposedly directed by god. Maybe you'd like to be turned into a pillar of salt. Or drowned in Noah's Flood. Or be murdered for some arbitrary reason like you were the first born. These are not things to "get past". And I say that as a person who doesn't have a problem with cherry picking...provided you don't try to sweep stuff under the proverbial rug.
I've conceded long ago that there are passages of wisdom in the New Testament. But if you're going to say what most christians would say...that either directly or indirectly the bible is the word of god -- and I've plenty of priests and ministers say just that -- then you gotta own up to the whole document, not just the parts that you like.
Oh Mordant, I've read the same bible you have. The difference is that I don't see His actions as "cranky, vengeful, spiteful, sadistic, etc."
Did Genesis say that God wiped out most of the human race through a flood? Yes.
Was it "cruel" for God to do this? Nope. So, why don't I think it was "cruel"?
Because I don't have God's knowledge, so I don't know what God's plan was/is. Since I don't have all the facts, I don't get to judge or even condemn God's behavior, especially by my human 'standards'...which are inferior to that of God's.
If I judge God, I am setting myself above Him. What right do I have to do that? I don't know nearly as much as God does, so HOW can I judge Him?
God just might have a darn good reason for doing some of the unpleasant things as depicted in the bible. Until I know what those reasons are, I'm not about to judge.
Several years ago I was at my cardiologist's office and I told him about some heart episodes that I commonly had related to mild tachycardia. "Oh, that's nothing", he said. My reply was, "Then may those kids of heart episodes happen to you". "Well, that's a cruel thing to say!" "Why. That's nothing". And then he backed off and said, "Okay. It's not nothing. But it's not going to kill you".
So, in the same vein, you don't think God drowning people in a flood was cruel. So I presume you don't think it would be cruel of me to say, "Then may you drown in a flood". But I bet you don't think that...when it's you, or your husband, or your son or daughter, instead of some nameless, faceless person that lived over 2,000 years ago. Have you no conscience?
Ironically, my former fundamentalist overlords inculcated in me a distrust of personal experience, as they always had front and center the potentially deceptive nature of same. By their lights, we had the scriptures, everything down in black and white, so personal experiences boil down to one of two things:
1) It fits with scripture, but we have scripture anyway, so it's just superfluous.
2) It doesn't fit with (our interpretation of) scripture, so it's a snare of the devil.
3) Also, (1) can gradually morph into (2), therefore, it's best shied away from to begin with. God gave us the scriptures for a reason, to eliminate uncertainty, deception and error. Personal experience was, in our teaching, a poor substitute for written revelation during that period of the church that the written word was incomplete or not widely available.
One thing I can say is that i never had the confines of such overlords Is it a bit loosey goosey - well yes but I for one am relieved i'm not living my life under the shackles of biblical doctrine! i truly rather go it alone in this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
My problem with it now is not some slippery-slope concern about being gradually led off by the nose into "error"; it is just that gods and devils are not necessary to explain personal subjective experiences. It is clear that people have subjective experiences with high emotional content and elevated feeling states that feel transcendent -- and they have them with our without religion, and certainly they exist in all religions, not just Christianity. So it is a human thing, and not necessarily, or very likely in my view, a divine thing.
I look at the aggregate of my own experiences. Does this mean they can't be explained without a god or divinity. Yes that is a possibility but for me, there is a fingerprint there that is enough for me to consider the possibility that its something more. I know you don't relate to that and it is ok. I still very much appreciate your insight and also the fact that you are being honest about how you think and feel about the topic. It is very genuine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
It is also clear that different people enter into these states with varying degrees of ease. I have not found myself amenable / susceptible / whatever to these states, but we have people here who clearly are. And I say, if you can access such a state, and enjoy it, or feel it benefits you, fine. But don't treat it like something that requires divine intervention to happen. It requires some sort of meditative focus, in a quiet setting, and because it apparently "presses the god switch" -- that spot in the brain where feelings of non-duality and transcendence come from, and which can be stimulated at will with an appropriately-placed electrode -- it is likely to induce an altered state of consciousness involving (usually) bliss or (sometimes) terror. Rather like recreational drugs.
For me it's not that these states require divine intervention, it is that we have them to begin with. There seems to be no utility (thanks for introducing me to this word lol) in having them at all, but here we are. There are some studies as well that some of us are more wired to believe in god and it is part of the primitive brain which I find interesting. All said, the fact that we can trigger states with electrodes to me doesn't eliminate the possibility of a god. We can't separate our physical self from some other 'self' in this world, so it would be a logical conduit. That said, you could very well be right and there are reasons for these that just developed as part of our evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Personally I do not see any utility in it, but if you do, more power to you.
The closest I come is being "in the flow" during the creative process of designing and building software, particularly when it involves specific kinds of problem spaces that I relate to especially well.
It's all about the flow Mordant - in this life and maybe the next
This discussion on belief and choice is so intriguing. At a certain point belief can become certitude.
I deeply value the inquiry that atheists raise for those of us who are deeply spiritual (not focused on a religiion)
We are made to look deeper into the core of our spiritual nature and glean out what is just “belief” or faith from what is actual “certitude.”
I don’t “believe” the sun rises every morning, I EXPERIENCE IT so I’m certain.
i don’t “believe” water is wet, I EXPERIENCE IT so I’m certain.
That’s the gift I got from atheists years ago — I don’t just “believe” or have “faith” in God — I EXPERIENCE IT. It’s not “belief” it’s CERTITUDE. based on personal experiencial evidence.
I experience “belief” or faith as making it’s home in the mind, in thinking, in analyzing, in desiring.
While “certitude” is outside the mind and from direct experiencing.
Why some of us get to have that direct experience of God and others don’t is the real question that ponders me continually.
Perhaps???? because we need atheists and militant religious evangelicals to guide us into the level of inquiry we are having here…..
I have STRONG “belief “ (but not certitude) that we are spirit experiencing being humans and when we die, we all go HOME — including atheists
I'm certainly inspired by your words mountainrose. You have a gift! that is something i experience with CERTITUDE
I wrote in another thread that the beauty of our experiences on earth are mirrored when we look up in the sky and into our universe. We can thank science for this as we develop technologies that allow us to look and experience this infinite beauty in ways we never could have before. I just wanted to add that to the way you beautifully captured the experience of the elements on earth.
I'm not there yet mountainrose with certainty that I experienced god but I stated earlier, the aggregate of my experiences have a fingerprint there that opens me up to it. This is why I value these discussions in this forum - and yes, getting the feedback from both sides is a way of stress testing where we are in the process.
Why is it important to invalidate experiences some people have that they wish to share in this space, in a thread that has drifted in several different directions?
Would anyone think of invalidating personal stories related here by posters of their experiences of sadness, loss of loved ones, sickness, overcoming addiction, abuses suffered, finding religion, being shunned, finding peace, and getting it altogether and succeeding to be in one piece?
What is the utility to one in doing that?
I was lucky, I one day just realized I no longer believed. It was not a choice to leave.
I don't agree with your last sentence, but you point out something very important in your first sentence. Some of our religionists seem to think we should have to prove -- through scriptures or other books -- why we don't believe. Nope. Same for me...one day a situation got to be just too much, and I lost every last shred of belief. Didn't need a book to tell me that.
I'm really not twisting it. This started out with your comment about 'if you can get past'. How do you get past some of the violence and killing either committed by god or supposedly directed by god. Maybe you'd like to be turned into a pillar of salt. Or drowned in Noah's Flood. Or be murdered for some arbitrary reason like you were the first born. These are not things to "get past". And I say that as a person who doesn't have a problem with cherry picking...provided you don't try to sweep stuff under the proverbial rug.
When I say "get past", I mean 'don't take it so literally'. Don't just read the words, but look for the lesson in the words (And no, the lesson isn't that God is some 'Moral Monster' )
I don't about the bible(s) you may have read phet, but mine has a pretty intense introduction. It explains how to read the OT...how the OT has a lot of allegorical material in it. What it doesn't do is to tell us WHAT'S allegorical and what isn't. My bible does not even call the story of Creation in Genesis the "truth." It does not consider it be a 'myth'. It calls it a Creation 'story', not necessarily truth or fiction.
If you had known all that ahead of time, would you have read it with 'different eyes'?
Quote:
I've conceded long ago that there are passages of wisdom in the New Testament. But if you're going to say what most christians would say...that either directly or indirectly the bible is the word of god -- and I've plenty of priests and ministers say just that -- then you gotta own up to the whole document, not just the parts that you like.
The only time I say that the bible is the "word of God" is usually if someone else posts about it as the "word of God". In other words, I'll do so for the sake of continuity. Otherwise, I believe the bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Just like I can be inspired to flip a homeless man a few bucks. I believe it's the Holy Spirit working through me as a 'channel'.
Am I making any sense to you?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The God our primitive and savage ancestors believed in is described in the OT. But the descriptions are THEIR misguided and misbegotten beliefs ABOUT God, NOT accurate interpretations of divine inspirations! The only reliable depictions of God and His True Nature are those of Jesus, IMO. At least, His consciousness as described matches the one I encountered and is why I adopted Christianity, NOT the primitive and barbaric descriptions in the Jewish fables.
) 
