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Most Indian Atheists are Hindu, simply because they are a huge majority. So they are not anti God as that is not very meaningful. They are against rites and worship that elevates Brahmins, against caste discrimination, and many are marxists and communists. They are quite vocal about this.
In countries where you have to identify with a religion such as Egypt and Indonesia, people that are not practicing of a religion they were born in will still identify with the religion they were born in with the ID card only as it is illegal to state by the government to say you don't have a religion. After all they can be harshly punished if they state in public there, they don't believe in God. Yet the government don't have problem with so called rich foreigners coming over there and them not believing in religion.
Most Indian Atheists are Hindu, simply because they are a huge majority. So they are not anti God as that is not very meaningful. They are against rites and worship that elevates Brahmins, against caste discrimination, and many are marxists and communists. They are quite vocal about this.
For what, that Hindu atheists are Marxists or Communists? The state i was born in and grew up was governed by the Communist Party. it still is and so are 9 other states ruled in alliance with other parties. The states ruled by the communist parties are generally advanced, high literacy, and with womens empowerment. Many have names such as Lenin. They are atheists in regards to social issues that are caused by Brahmin Orthodoxy but they don’t go around destroying temples or anything like that. They have marriages without the rites and name their children in beautiful literary names. many are intellectuals and writers who write in progressive magazines their opinions.
there is simply not such a dichotomy between religion and atheists. it is more about social and economic issues
These are my observations. i don’t have any links to give but you may find some.
Well in fairness, here in the US we also theoretically have freedom of (ir)religion but if you are not Christian, much less atheist, in may places and situations it is best to keep your head down. I don't really see much difference from what he's describing in India.
Well in fairness, here in the US we also theoretically have freedom of (ir)religion but if you are not Christian, much less atheist, in may places and situations it is best to keep your head down. I don't really see much difference from what he's describing in India.
I do not expect atheism to make gains in impoverished / uneducated countries. That is where Christianity and Islam seem to shine because uncritical acceptance is more easily obtained in such regions and politically speaking the population is more easily controlled.
I think this is a good point but I have to add that a lot of the gains are due to the fact that Christians and Muslims (in some cases) provide goods and services that are desperately needed in some of these communities. If somebody came along and saved my child's life with food and medicine, I'd be much more inclined to listen to their message.
I think this is a good point but I have to add that a lot of the gains are due to the fact that Christians and Muslims (in some cases) provide goods and services that are desperately needed in some of these communities. If somebody came along and saved my child's life with food and medicine, I'd be much more inclined to listen to their message.
Yes poverty and want provide opportunities to serve, as well as the desperation to accept help with strings attached such as listening to sermons. I've told the story before of a missionary friend who fed refugees from Hurricane Gilbert down in Mexico, but they had to watch Spanish-dubbed movies about the life of Christ. Was this disingenuous? I'm not entirely sure myself. I think my friend meant well and probably didn't understand the resentment such conditions would breed. I think it is better to have no strings attached and let people ask you about your motivations and beliefs, if they wish to. Things might not progress as fast, but I think the quality of your converts would go way up.
There's also of course something inherently smarmy about imposing foreign beliefs on people as a solution to their problems -- implying that their native beliefs are causing those problems. As well as the power imbalance of a wealthy Westerner dispensing largesse on the poor peons who are "without Christ".
Some of this critique applies to charity work generally, not necessarily religiously motivated charity work. And for sure, not 100% of this kind of thing is motivated by the desire to expand church influence. But let's face it, missionaries aren't sent to darkest Africa to cure malaria and nothing else. They are sent to make converts and found churches.
Yes poverty and want provide opportunities to serve, as well as the desperation to accept help with strings attached such as listening to sermons. I've told the story before of a missionary friend who fed refugees from Hurricane Gilbert down in Mexico, but they had to watch Spanish-dubbed movies about the life of Christ. Was this disingenuous? I'm not entirely sure myself. I think my friend meant well and probably didn't understand the resentment such conditions would breed. I think it is better to have no strings attached and let people ask you about your motivations and beliefs, if they wish to. Things might not progress as fast, but I think the quality of your converts would go way up.
There's also of course something inherently smarmy about imposing foreign beliefs on people as a solution to their problems -- implying that their native beliefs are causing those problems. As well as the power imbalance of a wealthy Westerner dispensing largesse on the poor peons who are "without Christ".
Some of this critique applies to charity work generally, not necessarily religiously motivated charity work. And for sure, not 100% of this kind of thing is motivated by the desire to expand church influence. But let's face it, missionaries aren't sent to darkest Africa to cure malaria and nothing else. They are sent to make converts and found churches.
Well stated. However, one thing I think is interesting about the imposition of the foreign beliefs as a solution to their problems is the fact that to some degree it is germane. Meaning that western ways of living (ie. education, medicine, civil engineering, etc.) are a necessary component to achieve a standard of living which eliminates third world conditions and problems. Western religion is so enmeshed in that process that even as a non believer, I have a hard time imagining a way to operating in the third world without it.
I guess there are humanist operations out there that do this type of work. It would be interesting to see how they approach the idea of progressing the culture without drastically changing it like the religionists do.
Well stated. However, one thing I think is interesting about the imposition of the foreign beliefs as a solution to their problems is the fact that to some degree it is germane. Meaning that western ways of living (ie. education, medicine, civil engineering, etc.) are a necessary component to achieve a standard of living which eliminates third world conditions and problems. Western religion is so enmeshed in that process that even as a non believer, I have a hard time imagining a way to operating in the third world without it.
I guess there are humanist operations out there that do this type of work. It would be interesting to see how they approach the idea of progressing the culture without drastically changing it like the religionists do.
I don't disagree. It is not so much that things like good hygiene or western medicine are somehow bad or wrong -- indeed they have the potential to greatly advance standards of living, particularly if the local economy will not be perpetually requiring charity to provide the technology. It is more the explicit and implicit strings attached and the difficulty of introducing western thinking without corrupting indigenous ways, unintentionally or otherwise. The culture shock and various laws of unintended consequences. I am not saying there are easy, flip answers to these things, just that they have had almost no consideration at all.
There are also those heart-tugging stories of primitive Amazon tribes that had never been contacted before, who end up dead from Western diseases, or where westerners won't take "no" for an answer when offering help, or where westerners end up on the other end of a spear because of unwittingly upsetting their political power structures by one-upping the local witch doctor.
There's also the question of objectives. Some cultures for example have a very fluid notion of time compared to the west. It's hard to get them to show up for work on time if you build a factory there. Then you discipline them for being "lazy". They aren't lazy, they simply don't see what the big deal is about exact schedules. Maybe you explain to them that this is the way to get promoted to higher paying positions but maybe they object that they are quite content with the pay they have. You might say they could afford running water in their home and they don't understand why that would be something that would improve their quality of life, which they see as quite wonderful. In this way westerners might simply teach people to be dissatisfied all the time. We don't see it that way because it's all we know. But not everything about Western ways are good, either. Even if they're neither better OR worse, simply changing things to fit western methods could cause societal harm, screw up rhythms and dynamics that have been in place for centuries.
Good posts above. I have often read that our current position in civilization can be credited to Judeo-Christian beliefs. But what if our standard of living is the result of allowing religious dissent hundreds of years ago? Wouldn't that be a necessary step in the countries that are often considered backwards?
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