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It is just part of our human nature and when all hell breaks loose, humans will throw out ideology and turn to blood relations.
As a general rule this is true and cuts both ways. For example I have heard stories of staunch fundamentalists who, when a beloved child comes out as gay, go to radio silence about the topic and, to their credit, do not shun their child or their significant other. On the other hand, there are counterexamples, particularly in the sects like the JWs that go all hardcase on the topic of shunning and make it an actual value. And there are people for whom their church becomes a substitute family because their biological one is so dysfunctional, so their primary loyalty is not familial.
You are right though, it is generally family, then tribe, then society / culture.
As a general rule this is true and cuts both ways. For example I have heard stories of staunch fundamentalists who, when a beloved child comes out as gay, go to radio silence about the topic and, to their credit, do not shun their child or their significant other. On the other hand, there are counterexamples, particularly in the sects like the JWs that go all hardcase on the topic of shunning and make it an actual value. And there are people for whom their church becomes a substitute family because their biological one is so dysfunctional, so their primary loyalty is not familial.
You are right though, it is generally family, then tribe, then society / culture.
I was thinking family, tribe, society/culture, then ideas. Ideas would be something like laws or rules that are applied universally which would be the whole point of an impartial God. Perhaps practicing fedeism may not be the problem. Instead, what might be the problem is that fedeism is not practiced at the ideal level and loyalty is being placed at a lower level such as society and culture.
I was thinking family, tribe, society/culture, then ideas. Ideas would be something like laws or rules that are applied universally which would be the whole point of an impartial God. Perhaps practicing fedeism may not be the problem. Instead, what might be the problem is that fedeism is not practiced at the ideal level and loyalty is being placed at a lower level such as society and culture.
Ideas, to be accurate and useful, have to be valid and tethered to the real world, so that our ideas produce an accurate mental model of reality as we go about our daily decisions. If your ideas are based on wishful thinking, needs, hopes, aspirations, desires without any grounding in what actually IS, then it is going to be a problem no matter what level(s) you apply them to. Ideas, words, thoughts, all have meanings and meanings matter.
As an example, if you think you're effectively an actor in some cosmic stage play directed by god and witnessed by angels, that is an indirect way of saying life is all about, and for, you, which means your focus is inherently less on others, especially others whose existence doesn't touch on yours. You are going to tend to be filled with grievances against people not in your orbit (or caricatures of people, really, because you don't actually KNOW them or SEE them) . You'll tend to blame the problems in the world on atheists, false religions, the insufficiently pious by your lights, and eventually on immigrants, minorities, spendthrifts, moochers, the poor, addicts, criminals, the outsiders, the different, the Not You. You can be entirely dispassionate about the humanity or feelings of these classes of Other People, those who are not your family or church, because they aren't on board with your fundamentally and fatally flawed IDEAS. In fact they prevent you from being COMFORTABLE in those ideas, because they challenge many of your assumptions and simplifications and demand flexibility and change from you. In the end this threatens your very identity and is treated as an existential threat.
Ideas, to be accurate and useful, have to be valid and tethered to the real world, so that our ideas produce an accurate mental model of reality as we go about our daily decisions. If your ideas are based on wishful thinking, needs, hopes, aspirations, desires without any grounding in what actually IS, then it is going to be a problem no matter what level(s) you apply them to. Ideas, words, thoughts, all have meanings and meanings matter.
As an example, if you think you're effectively an actor in some cosmic stage play directed by god and witnessed by angels, that is an indirect way of saying life is all about, and for, you, which means your focus is inherently less on others, especially others whose existence doesn't touch on yours. You are going to tend to be filled with grievances against people not in your orbit (or caricatures of people, really, because you don't actually KNOW them or SEE them) . You'll tend to blame the problems in the world on atheists, false religions, the insufficiently pious by your lights, and eventually on immigrants, minorities, spendthrifts, moochers, the poor, addicts, criminals, the outsiders, the different, the Not You. You can be entirely dispassionate about the humanity or feelings of these classes of Other People, those who are not your family or church, because they aren't on board with your fundamentally and fatally flawed IDEAS. In fact they prevent you from being COMFORTABLE in those ideas, because they challenge many of your assumptions and simplifications and demand flexibility and change from you. In the end this threatens your very identity and is treated as an existential threat.
which is exactly what the opening post does. the views put forth in the opening post do exactly that:
"you blame the problems of the world on believers, the insufficiently intellectual by your lights" "You can be entirely dispassionate about the humanity of feelings of these classes of Other People [believers] because they challenge many of your assumptions and simplifications and demand flexibility and change from you. In the end this threatens your very identity and is treated as an existential threat."
the opening post does not put forth accurate or useful ideas, because they are not valid and are not tethered to the real world, and do not produce an accurate mental model of reality. Rather they are based on wishful thinking (blame religion for everything), needs, hopes, desires, aspirations, without actual grounding in what actually IS. The focus of the views in the opening post is inherently less on others, and is filled with grievances against people, or caricatures of people. The views put forth in the opening post are the epitome of just that.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-11-2022 at 07:45 AM..
which is exactly what the opening post does. the views put forth in the opening post do exactly that:
"you blame the problems of the world on believers, the insufficiently intellectual by your lights" "You can be entirely dispassionate about the humanity of feelings of these classes of Other People [believers] because they challenge many of your assumptions and simplifications and demand flexibility and change from you. In the end this threatens your very identity and is treated as an existential threat."
the opening post does not put forth accurate or useful ideas, because they are not valid and are not tethered to the real world, and do not produce an accurate mental model of reality. Rather they are based on wishful thinking (blame religion for everything), needs, hopes, desires, aspirations, without actual grounding in what actually IS.
You are just replacing words as if that is a valid method of creating rational arguments (I stopped doing that when I was about 6), while not actually addressing the opening post.
Fideism exists, and is a problem, and you need to address that instead of just dismissing something simply because you do not like it.
Last edited by Harry Diogenes; 12-11-2022 at 08:58 AM..
You are just replacing words as if that is a valid method of creating rational arguments (I stopped doing that when i was about 6), while not actually addressing the opening post. Fideism exists, and is a problem, and you need to address that instead of just dismissing something simply because you do not like it.
i have addressed it and found it grossly wanting, for the very reasons put forth in the view itself: simplistic, caricatures of people, wishful thinking (blame religion for everything), filled with grievances, not tethered to the real world, unable to challenge simplified assumptions, blame all the problems of the world on believing, and does not put forth accurate or useful ideas.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-11-2022 at 08:11 AM..
You are just replacing words as if that is a valid method of creating rational arguments (I stopped doing that when I was about 6), while not actually addressing the opening post.
Fideism exists, and is a problem, and you need to address that instead of just dismissing something simply because you do not like it.
Another inconvenient point in my OP is that fideism doesn't just exist in religion. Even if I am wrong that religion is in large measure "patient zero", it is now for whatever reason a widespread problem outside of religious teaching. For example, incels believe essentially that alpha males get all the pretty girls at their expense, that this is unfair since they are entitled to sex with beautiful women and has nothing to do with their conduct or behavior toward women. This is an article of faith asserted without evidence and in fact in the face of massive contrary evidence.
So you are right, fideism is an actual problem. And it would be nice to have rational discussion concerning it, rather than tu cuoque fallacies.
Another inconvenient point in my OP is that fideism doesn't just exist in religion. Even if I am wrong that religion is in large measure
"patient zero", it is now for whatever reason a widespread problem outside of religious teaching. For example, incels believe essentially that alpha males get all the pretty girls at their expense, that this is unfair since they are entitled to sex with beautiful women and has nothing to do with their conduct or behavior toward women. This is an article of faith asserted without evidence and in fact in the face of massive contrary evidence. So you are right, fideism is an actual problem. And it would be nice to have rational discussion concerning it, rather than tu cuoque fallacies.
since the assertion presented in the opening post is not valid, then the conclusions which stem from the claim are also likewise invalid.
"article of faith asserted without evidence" "in the face of massive contrary evidence"
is simply a way of saying there are views and beliefs that you disagree with.
the assertion "fideism is a widespread problem outside religion and is the fundamental problem of the modern era" is itself an example of "an article of faith asserted without evidence"
it points to a fundamental core difficulty in accepting differing beliefs and views, and in that sense is not tethered to the real world.
i don't find the assertions put forth to be "rational discussion" (it's a dead giveaway when views a person disagrees with are labeled "virus" "infection" "anti-intellectual" "infected thinking" and "inter species virus"). Rather than rational discussion, that puts the claims instead squarely in the category of "rant" or "online venting." Ranting precludes rational discussion.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-11-2022 at 12:57 PM..
Ideas, to be accurate and useful, have to be valid and tethered to the real world, so that our ideas produce an accurate mental model of reality as we go about our daily decisions. If your ideas are based on wishful thinking, needs, hopes, aspirations, desires without any grounding in what actually IS, then it is going to be a problem no matter what level(s) you apply them to. Ideas, words, thoughts, all have meanings and meanings matter.
As an example, if you think you're effectively an actor in some cosmic stage play directed by god and witnessed by angels, that is an indirect way of saying life is all about, and for, you, which means your focus is inherently less on others, especially others whose existence doesn't touch on yours. You are going to tend to be filled with grievances against people not in your orbit (or caricatures of people, really, because you don't actually KNOW them or SEE them) . You'll tend to blame the problems in the world on atheists, false religions, the insufficiently pious by your lights, and eventually on immigrants, minorities, spendthrifts, moochers, the poor, addicts, criminals, the outsiders, the different, the Not You. You can be entirely dispassionate about the humanity or feelings of these classes of Other People, those who are not your family or church, because they aren't on board with your fundamentally and fatally flawed IDEAS. In fact they prevent you from being COMFORTABLE in those ideas, because they challenge many of your assumptions and simplifications and demand flexibility and change from you. In the end this threatens your very identity and is treated as an existential threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Another inconvenient point in my OP is that fideism doesn't just exist in religion. Even if I am wrong that religion is in large measure "patient zero", it is now for whatever reason a widespread problem outside of religious teaching. For example, incels believe essentially that alpha males get all the pretty girls at their expense, that this is unfair since they are entitled to sex with beautiful women and has nothing to do with their conduct or behavior toward women. This is an article of faith asserted without evidence and in fact in the face of massive contrary evidence.
So you are right, fideism is an actual problem. And it would be nice to have rational discussion concerning it, rather than tu cuoque fallacies.
I think we can identify where fideism exists. We can describe it when we see it even when we do it. But to identify the cause of it? There may be many causes to the point that it is pervasive in society. To claim it is a problem is to have a solution, which you do have, and that is to have ideas that are grounded in reality. However, I think that is an intentional act rather than something that just happens by accident. In other words, having ideas that are built on hopes, dreams, and wishes, but are not actually supported by evidence, is the human default. Hopes, dreams, and wishes exist in the same place as the future tense - in our minds.
American K-12 schooling attempts to remedy this human default. Now why some schools are not particularly successful I think has to do with motivation. Hopes, dreams, and wishes - the possible future - inspire people. Schooling, in the form that it is now for many, does not.
At the risk of going off-topic, I would like to share my own personal experience dealing with a family whose ideas were not grounded in reality. What they said did not fit what they did, something we recognize within the religious community. When I did something they recognized as ideal, their hopes had risen. But as soon as I did something else unexpected, it was pure disappointment. They spent so much time promoting their ideas based on hope, dreams, and wishes, that it was difficult for them to let go of them. They held tight to their beliefs rather than to me.
Being heavily invested in the ideas of religion may make it difficult to let go of them.
I think we can identify where fideism exists. We can describe it when we see it even when we do it. But to identify the cause of it? There may be many causes to the point that it is pervasive in society. To claim it is a problem is to have a solution, which you do have, and that is to have ideas that are grounded in reality. However, I think that is an intentional act rather than something that just happens by accident. In other words, having ideas that are built on hopes, dreams, and wishes, but are not actually supported by evidence, is the human default. Hopes, dreams, and wishes exist in the same place as the future tense - in our minds.
American K-12 schooling attempts to remedy this human default. Now why some schools are not particularly successful I think has to do with motivation. Hopes, dreams, and wishes - the possible future - inspire people. Schooling, in the form that it is now for many, does not.
At the risk of going off-topic, I would like to share my own personal experience dealing with a family whose ideas were not grounded in reality. What they said did not fit what they did, something we recognize within the religious community. When I did something they recognized as ideal, their hopes had risen. But as soon as I did something else unexpected, it was pure disappointment. They spent so much time promoting their ideas based on hope, dreams, and wishes, that it was difficult for them to let go of them. They held tight to their beliefs rather than to me.
Being heavily invested in the ideas of religion may make it difficult to let go of them.
I agree with the above.
The reason schools aren't very effective is that they do not teach critical thinking skills. And I think in most jurisdictions, such a program would not be welcomed by parents, as it would have their own children asking them uncomfortable questions about parental beliefs and practices. I think even where it would be initially unopposed, it would eventually cause blowback. As a society were are not interested in clarity anymore. And I do not have an antidote for that societal-level problem. Not one that would be an easy or quick fix, anyway. We're at an impasse right now -- as a society, generally, we're all in on fideism to a significant degree, whether it is the protection of religious dogma, political ideology, or just warding off anything that demands any kind of personal sacrifice for the common good. Basically if it's inconvenient or in some other way takes away privileges we want that are unsustainable in reality, we will stick with our privilege every time.
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