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It's always hard for me to follow this sort of rationale and to see atheism described in ways that suit whatever a theist is trying to prove, but I am an atheist, and I don't see that my beliefs involve faith as you want to insist. Unless you want to call my trust the sun will rise in the morning faith, or that I have faith the earth is round and not flat.
From a religious standpoint the definition of faith is "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof." This definition is a far cry from atheism in any case.
Then, "to think logically," I'm always amazed that people who have faith in a "Creator God and creation" can think this is entirely logical without considering from where the Creator God came to be in the first place. Or how. Of course that question is as old as can be, but why is it not logical to consider how everything came to be without imagining a Creator God, while thinking it's entirely logical to assume a Creator God without beginning or end?
Consider either option carefully and they begin to sound like the same thing with the one exception of inserting a faith in a god into the unknown place holder. Atheists leave the unknown as unknown and don't argue about different versions of imagination AKA religions.
"To think logically that the entire world simply evolved is beyond the level of faith that I have." But to think that POOF and just like that there is a Creator God is not even further beyond? How does that work? Logically speaking that is...
The counterargument to theism doesn't make sense to an atheist because BOTH arguments are from the theist. Watch them give their arguments as your thoughts. Watch what that says about their level. Keep it where it belongs, as two irrational arguments from the same source. Then for the bonus points, check your look.
I'm not sure it will last that long, lol. I think people may accept an increasingly dystopian hellscape of an existence and try to pretend that it's perfectly normal, for maybe 20 years or so, from like 2040 to 2060. After that, I think it will be hard even for those sorts of folks to pretend Everything Is Okay.
Here at Chez Mordant, we have portable solar panels and solar generators, a deep pantry and a water catchment / purification system just to smooth out some of the speed bumps in supply chains and increasing failures of infrastructure, but I think even somewhat prepared humans will be dying out in large numbers well before the end of this century, unfortunately.
And there are a lot of ways for it to go sideways sooner. Putin could start lobbing nukes around, for example. Pretty much any time. I'm somewhat comforted by what appears to be the pathetic state of his military, and the dysfunction of his command and control, but he could lay waste to parts of Europe (and Scandanavia) just out of spite if he chose to. And even a "local" nuclear exchange would be a massive shock to what's left of the ecosystem, and to financial markets, and to governments.
In the UK much of this is already realized. I read not long ago of an elderly woman who fell at home and broke a hip, and her neighbors tried to comfort her as she lay there in agony for a day or two because the ambulance would not come due to staffing issues. The UK doesn't home-grow many crops, such as tomatoes, and must import them from Europe -- but the whole Brexit mess is preventing that from happening, so there have been large spot shortages of basic staples at the local grocer's there.
You don't have to be -- I am probably pessimistic enough for both of us, ha ha.
It's certainly not helping, is it?
I spoke in this space not long ago about my 80 year old fundagelical brother who wasn't wiling to take basic masking / distancing precautions to protect his wife (from the common cold, much less Covid) while she underwent chemotherapy. To him that is just the sin of worry. I mean I don't even know how to address such disordered thinking anymore. I literally give up. Where would one even start?
You two are a bit pessimistic, and I wish I could be more optimistic about being optimistic in light of all you both rightfully point out, but on balance, what about the good news?
Starting with where humanity was in many of these respects even as little as 100 years ago? Back when lots of people believed in backward ways and they weren't even considered backward. That's a bit of progress, is it not? I don't know what to think or do about people like your brother either, but people like that have been a part of the mix for a long time now. Fortunately, the fundagelical numbers seem to be going down a bit at least.
I don't live a shelter way of life, but we do have enough to last us awhile in our refrigerator, freezer and pantries. We have an EV that we can plug into a wall socket out back. No more trips to the gas station to fill 'er up (or oil changes, smog checks, alternators, carburetors, spark plugs, fuel tank). We've got solar panels on our roof that have driven our cost of energy to about minimum. We've got an electric water heater up in our attic which tends to stay warmer than the rest of the house, so less energy needed to keep the water hot. I sure don't miss all the times I had to restart the flame in our old gas water heater. This new electric one is so far as reliable as can be.
Still got gas for the stove and fireplace, but at least they're also fuel efficient as the latest can be. All our windows and doors have been replaced with energy efficient models too.
We've for the most part got native draught resistant plants in our front yard, now blooming like never before after a number of good -- record -- rains. My veggie seeds are sprouting in raised planters and other containers in the back, including four varieties of tomato plants. All of those close to the rain catcher that captures a good amount of water for watering the veggies and other plants in the back.
We have access to pretty good health care and dentistry nearby, in an area popular with people who enjoy getting exercise which helps a bit too. We try to get in our 10K steps on a daily basis.
Not that we haven't noticed the rising prices and supply shortage issues too, but there are usually the alternatives available if need be, or patience if necessary. Always amazes me how all the eateries keep their doors open and tables pretty full, but there are a lot of them around here and somehow they manage. Not only with food supply shortages but labor shortages too. Still, they somehow manage to keep on keeping on. Most of them anyway.
Though there are all the obvious threats to humanity, I try to compare these days to the times of WWI and/or WWII, and we seem to be doing at least a little better than back then. We were just in the UK. Wales too, and despite a few issues like the airport/transportation workers strike, we enjoyed nothing but good times there. It helps if you stick to ordering fish and chips though.
Ultimately, it seems to me it's important to appreciate the good along with recognizing the bad and ugly, or the good doesn't seem as good and the bad and ugly seems all the more bad and ugly.
You two are a bit pessimistic, and I wish I could be more optimistic about being optimistic in light of all you both rightfully point out, but on balance, what about the good news?
Starting with where humanity was in many of these respects even as little as 100 years ago? Back when lots of people believed in backward ways and they weren't even considered backward. That's a bit of progress, is it not? I don't know what to think or do about people like your brother either, but people like that have been a part of the mix for a long time now. Fortunately, the fundagelical numbers seem to be going down a bit at least.
I don't live a shelter way of life, but we do have enough to last us awhile in our refrigerator, freezer and pantries. We have an EV that we can plug into a wall socket out back. No more trips to the gas station to fill 'er up (or oil changes, smog checks, alternators, carburetors, spark plugs, fuel tank). We've got solar panels on our roof that have driven our cost of energy to about minimum. We've got an electric water heater up in our attic which tends to stay warmer than the rest of the house, so less energy needed to keep the water hot. I sure don't miss all the times I had to restart the flame in our old gas water heater. This new electric one is so far as reliable as can be.
Still got gas for the stove and fireplace, but at least they're also fuel efficient as the latest can be. All our windows and doors have been replaced with energy efficient models too.
We've for the most part got native draught resistant plants in our front yard, now blooming like never before after a number of good -- record -- rains. My veggie seeds are sprouting in raised planters and other containers in the back, including four varieties of tomato plants. All of those close to the rain catcher that captures a good amount of water for watering the veggies and other plants in the back.
We have access to pretty good health care and dentistry nearby, in an area popular with people who enjoy getting exercise which helps a bit too. We try to get in our 10K steps on a daily basis.
Not that we haven't noticed the rising prices and supply shortage issues too, but there are usually the alternatives available if need be, or patience if necessary. Always amazes me how all the eateries keep their doors open and tables pretty full, but there are a lot of them around here and somehow they manage. Not only with food supply shortages but labor shortages too. Still, they somehow manage to keep on keeping on. Most of them anyway.
Though there are all the obvious threats to humanity, I try to compare these days to the times of WWI and/or WWII, and we seem to be doing at least a little better than back then. We were just in the UK. Wales too, and despite a few issues like the airport/transportation workers strike, we enjoyed nothing but good times there. It helps if you stick to ordering fish and chips though.
Ultimately, it seems to me it's important to appreciate the good along with recognizing the bad and ugly, or the good doesn't seem as good and the bad and ugly seems all the more bad and ugly.
Divinity and spirituality is not only for the afflicted and the poor, as the godless seem to convince themselves. It is also for the healthy and the contented. One does not cancel the other.
I can try. There was at some point when quite a few people were saying that the three major belief systems believe in the same God - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. This is an attempt to unite and to find a commonality in order to avoid further conflict. There are some who agree, but there are those who oppose. Those who oppose have noted the differences and they are significant enough that they believe that one must be right while the other two are wrong. There is really no evidence behind this position other than what was proposed earlier - that there are some people who cannot see outside their belief system. I think another way this has been explained was that it was just something they were born into and had they been born into the other faiths, they would feel the same way.
I can try. There was at some point when quite a few people were saying that the three major belief systems believe in the same God - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. This is an attempt to unite and to find a commonality in order to avoid further conflict. There are some who agree, but there are those who oppose. Those who oppose have noted the differences and they are significant enough that they believe that one must be right while the other two are wrong. There is really no evidence behind this position other than what was proposed earlier - that there are some people who cannot see outside their belief system. I think another way this has been explained was that it was just something they were born into and had they been born into the other faiths, they would feel the same way.
Thank you.
Personally, I don't think it matters if it is the same god or not. What seems to matter (and is sometimes a life and death matter) is how the religion is interprted.
They are not mutually exclusive. That is the mistaken belief. The god that creates everything is also IN everything that is created, because god is in everything, there is nothing that has no god in it. God is existence. Everything is not god but god is in everything. Important distinction
No evil was mentioned. Actions attach to the actor, negative or positive. Evil is in the mind.
Divinity and spirituality is not only for the afflicted and the poor, as the godless seem to convince themselves. It is also for the healthy and the contented. One does not cancel the other.
You post this in response to my comment, but I'm not seeing the connection...
I certainly don't think divinity and spirituality is only for the afflicted and the poor in any case. What did I post that suggests such a thing. In fact, I know many people who consider themselves spiritual and/or believe in a god who are neither afflicted or poor.
You seem to be doing it again. Leading with your chin, drawing conclusions and making assumptions that are not appropriate. All in your head in this case. Not in mine in any case.
I can try. There was at some point when quite a few people were saying that the three major belief systems believe in the same God - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. This is an attempt to unite and to find a commonality in order to avoid further conflict. There are some who agree, but there are those who oppose. Those who oppose have noted the differences and they are significant enough that they believe that one must be right while the other two are wrong. There is really no evidence behind this position other than what was proposed earlier - that there are some people who cannot see outside their belief system. I think another way this has been explained was that it was just something they were born into and had they been born into the other faiths, they would feel the same way.
I don't know...
Given what I know about the history of these religions and how they have influenced all history from their beginning, and given what I know about the particulars of all three religions, I have a very hard time with the notion they don't conflict with one another in some very significant ways. I can well appreciate those efforts to "find commonality in order to avoid further conflict" and there is some there to be had, but just that need or want to avoid further conflict is telling.
If only those efforts were more successful in any case, but sadly they have been far too often unsuccessful. For far too long now and at too high a cost.
I can try. There was at some point when quite a few people were saying that the three major belief systems believe in the same God - Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. This is an attempt to unite and to find a commonality in order to avoid further conflict. There are some who agree, but there are those who oppose. Those who oppose have noted the differences and they are significant enough that they believe that one must be right while the other two are wrong. There is really no evidence behind this position other than what was proposed earlier - that there are some people who cannot see outside their belief system. I think another way this has been explained was that it was just something they were born into and had they been born into the other faiths, they would feel the same way.
Seeing the unity/connection in religions depends to large extent on personal spiritual maturity. It is not to avoid anything, but rather a positive and joyous affirmation that Divinity exists and that is it is good. This does not mean religions don't have differences, of course they have to. Religion is people and people are shaped by their geography, culture, language. How they address Divinity of course will differ. How can it not? Yet we are all human and seekers. Other than atheists of course, who all deny/reject Divinity. Nothing pejorative meant by that, just fact.
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