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When it comes to morality, it seems that theists are in the same boat as atheists.
Atheists: they make up a moral code
Theists: they make up a god that makes up a moral code
Not much difference, really.
True, but many theists do not apply their own arguments to their own gods. People making up moral codes is subjective, but when a god does it, it is for some reason objective. And following the logic of their arguments, a god could decide the holocaust is morally good. And all based on presuming morality is objective and that objective truths must come from a god.
However you want to put it, you can't get around it.
Belief in the existence of God and religious morality is based on faith. There is no physical and tangible evidence.
I can open my Bible to Leviticus and Deuteronomy, where there is a physical and tangible evidence of a religious morality. Are you saying religious people follow a different morality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
If there was one, we wouldn't have a choice, and everyone would be a believer.
No, we would have a choice to evaluate that morality. And we have, we reject a large part of it. Try following OT morality and you will probably end up in jail.
It’s finally getting a little interesting after 25 pages.
That is strange, I thought it stopped being interesting after 25 posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
Let’s take a step back to see where we at.
ALL atheists believe in the existence of morality.
No Atheist is able to provide a physical, tangible or a scientific evidence to prove the existence of morality.
What Atheists tend to agree is that evidence of existence of morality is a logical one, and not a physical or scientific one.
There is a passage in the Bible about building a house on sand.
Since the moral code of an Atheist is a personal subjective code, it is easy to provide evidence. All the Atheist has to do is quote his or her own beliefs and say they are proof of morality.
That is a very simple view of morality. Just because some parts are subjective (cultural or personal) does not make all of morality subjective.
interesting.
Do you have an example of this? I would like to validate such an evidence.
One man tells another man not to commit adultery because it is immoral and will only bring trouble. Then when the faithless act is committed and there is turmoil and regret, the righteous one can say to themselves or to others, "See, I told him not to do it."
Your comment about wanting to validate such evidence is an interesting one. I did not provide evidence. Instead, I provided claims, reasoning, and examples. Examples are not evidence. Evidence you see with your own eyes.
That is a very simple view of morality. Just because some parts are subjective (cultural or personal) does not make all of morality subjective.
Harry, could you please give an example of morality being objective? The only thing I can think of is to respect the autonomy of a living creature.
Personally, I don't separate objective and subjective from those who can perceive through the senses. Objectiveness is what has the potential to be sensed. Subjectiveness is what we call it when we sense it.
How is that situation improved if good and evil only exist in the mind of god? It's still a construct of a mind.
In any case, as I've mentioned, theists are in the main fine with select kinds of murder. Shooting someone in self defense, or under orders in war, or an executioner working for the state, etc.
They're even fine for the most part with a cop shooting a suspect IN THE BACK for having the temerity to flee the officer. Clearly no self-defense involved.
So don't pretend that theist moral convictions around murder are "fixed" or "objective" or even logically consistent.
Of course I supposed you can redefine the above situations as "not murder" to pretend there's no subjectivity involved. But the "taking of human life by another human" is what I'm talking about.
I only support murder in self defense or if we're killing child rapists. Or if they live in the hood and they have to kill to survive. But yeah murder ain't evil, but most forms of murder are evil for my personal moral code and to pretty much everyone.
GoCardinals, what evidence do you have that morality exists within religion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
Religious morality is primarily based on faith - and having faith does not require evidence.
If an evidence is provided then it’s not faith anymore.
There is also a logical piece of having a religious based morality.
Logically it makes sense to a believer to have religious base moral code.
And obviously, this religious based morality does not always logically sit very well with the mindset of an Atheist
ps: we have already established that there is perhaps no physical, tangible evidence of morality - to begin with.
Morality is something supported by most religions, but the morality does not come from religion. The morality exists in society regardless on one's religion. You can see that people behave in similar ways within a society, even though they may belong to different religions.
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