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Memes... Probably something misunderstood by so many and even frowned upon as something non-realistic. But, memes are interesting to think about when put in their proper light.
Memes are indeed the product of Darwinian Evolution in how they replicate and transfer from one mind to another. The Darwinian "three step" - heredity, variation, and selection are certainly applicable and we know with those three items that we do indeed get evolution. And so it is also a wonderful thing to look at how memes are propagated and how they change over time.
Memes are, from my understanding, much like genes in every way. Although they do not actually have some sort of DNA coding they most certainly replicate and they do so with variation, heredity, and selection. They also, might I add, replicate rather selfishly and without regard for what the ultimate "goal" is. They simply transform themselves from the mind of one individual to another and to another and to another.
A very simple example of a meme would be to play the "Telephone Game" with children. Inject a thought or a sentence and have each child relay it to the next and so on and so forth. As we all know, in the end, the original thought or sentence is turned into something grossly different than the original. Yet, we should look at that and realize the exact Darwinian evolution that occurred within that small time frame. The idea started as something - maybe even simplistic - but turns out grossly maligned from its original format in the end sometimes good and sometimes bad.
But, a better example is something like a rumor mill at work. Someone hears a partial conversation and an idea forms. A rumor begins. But a rumor is a meme in itself. And so the meme will replicate to the next person just like a virus. What turns from a partially heard conversation of perhaps someone getting fired turns into an explosion of miffed and baffled co-workers. But what is the process that turned this rumor meme into something so catastrophic? Why, evolution, of course.
You see, it uses the same processes (heredity, variation, and selection) to propagate itself (not consciously) from human to human to human. The best replicating parts, the ones most survivable stay intact and this meme becomes something quite rightly different than it originally was.
But that merely covers human interaction and a small piece of the puzzle. Could it not be said the same is true for things such as works of art, car styles, fashions, music, and any number of other cultural ideas? Why certainly. The very idea of something like art has been around in the human mind for thousands of years. Cave paintings in France going back 20,000 years show us that not only were our ancestors capable of these thoughts and creating these memes but that they were also capable of spreading those memes. And as those memes spread they changed over time. Looking at any part of Art History we see different movements, different exchanges of artistic ideas and paths just as if we were looking at the fossil record of animals. We go from cave paintings to Renaissance movements, to the Impressionists, to the Dada-ists. And throughout all of this, this art meme has propagated itself to identify with cultures and sub-cultures.
So, why shouldn't we view religion as a meme as well? The initial idea perhaps to explain why thunder roared, why lightning flashed, and why people died turned into the idea that something must be "greater" than our lowly existence on Earth. And yet, these ideas seem to transcend time through many different myriads of cultures but they are all different all the same. Again, to look back at the "fossil record" of religion, we would find many of them long since dead and gone, the ideas, the memes that weren't fit for their environment perished. And yet, the most persistent and the most tenacious and survivable within their means carry on only to replicate further.
Mind you, memes do not have to be a good thing. Like genes, they can be entirely bad as well. Memes can be good or bad and they too must use genetics to propagate themselves. In all, the very coding that makes up memes are thoughts and mimickry and how those thoughts are propagated throughout societies are what brings on cultural revolutions, change, and sometimes stassis but it's all done with the Darwinian model of evolution. Heredity, Selection, and Variation.
So, why shouldn't we view religion as a meme as well?
It's actually a perfect example of a meme. Over the centuries we've seen religion change, adapt and split off into new religions. Some ideas are dropped while others have prevailed to this very day. I'll bet you also read Susan Blackmore's book The Meme Machine like I did. It's quite an interesting concept. Religion tends to be very rigid and inflexible so there's a strong influence among religious people who want to maintain the traditions that have existed for such a long time, nevertheless, new ideas and influences are inevitable as new generations don't see things in quite the same way as their parents or grandparents did.
It's actually a perfect example of a meme. Over the centuries we've seen religion change, adapt and split off into new religions. Some ideas are dropped while others have prevailed to this very day. I'll bet you also read Susan Blackmore's book The Meme Machine like I did. It's quite an interesting concept. Religion tends to be very rigid and inflexible so there's a strong influence among religious people who want to maintain the traditions that have existed for such a long time, nevertheless, new ideas and influences are inevitable as new generations don't see things in quite the same way as their parents or grandparents did.
You know, you're the second person to mention Susan Blackmore's book to me. I haven't read it yet but I did watch a woman give a speech about it somewhere on the internet. I'm assuming it was probably her.... There's no way I'd find it again... But, I just started thinking about memes last night when I found out George Carlin died. Just one of those random thought processes that rummaged through my mind.
The only way to understand a language correctly is to understand the culture first, so learning a new language is more than just learning a language.
I mean a language is more than a string of words, just like words are more than just a string of letters.
I find the transformation from Judaism to Christianity very interesting since Christianity, in my opinion, is very different from Jesus' original ideas. You could say that Christianity is a meme lost in translation.
The only way to understand a language correctly is to understand the culture first, so learning a new language is more than just learning a language.
I mean a language is more than a string of words, just like words are more than just a string of letters.
I find the transformation from Judaism to Christianity very interesting since Christianity, in my opinion, is very different from Jesus' original ideas. You could say that Christianity is a meme lost in translation.
Yes, language would be a meme. A very important meme. When you think about it, language is one of the most important memes because it has been able to influence and spread other memes with profound fashion. Think about it like this:
Thousands of years ago, there had to be a group of people, a small cluster, perhaps even simultaneous groups of people who grunted, used vocal chords or conveyed in some way to do something. This, of course was a result of genetic propagation. Vocal chords, the speech centers of the brain, etc... All enabled people to utter those first words or grunts via genetic disposition. As a result, others grunted as a sort of mimickry and soon different grunts or syllables meant different things. Through time, these sounds, noises and grunts turned into a few different languages and from there they took on the form of a vast promulgation of different languages. Even looking at something like Romance languages in today's modern world you can see how the meme has changed over time and we can once again look at our memical "fossil record" in that of dead languages such as Latin. Yet, we shouldn't or couldn't be so absolute in thinking that all of a sudden man just had a fully developed language. Just as English has changed throughout time, we realize that it too was a process of slow gradual change.
What becomes even more interesting is to determine if cave paintings were a meme of writing down language or if they were artwork. They tell a story of sorts just like any book. But, could this be the beginning of a branch, or a new "species" of meme derivative of language itself? And from there, this meme took on its' own form of selection, variation, and heredity.
Jewelry could be another form. We've found necklaces over 70,000 years old which certainly tells us one thing. That man CARED about something. But, this too should also be seen as memical. The transfer or mimickry of ideas. Walking a certain way could be seen as another.
Yet, we must be dilligent to understand that memes are not an explanation for WHY people think, but rather an explanation for how different thoughts are propagated through culture. Psychology and neurobiology may tell us why certain memes are held onto with such great fervor and how these thoughts or ideas are "selected" in the human mind, but memes are just how these thoughts are propagated throughout cultures.
Ah memes. memes - deoxy.org/find
That's a link to some good pages on memes at one of my favorite web-sites.
I used to forum and chat there quite a few years ago but then most of the good people (ie; the people i could relate to ) moved on.
But it's a very interesting, eclectic, at times radical/revolutionary, intelligent site and definitely not for the religiously inclined.
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin I agree that the internet is the fastes replicating meme. But claiming that it also is the most successful?
In a way yes, IMO there are 2 important features in memes: the ability to spread and the ability to last.
Language, religions, philosophies, culture take centuries to properly spread while the phrase "all your base are belong to us" spread worldwide in a matter of months. Thats one way in which it is the most successful
What they don't do is last. Internet memes tend to follow a very well known endemic pattern where they spread like the plague, reach a peak and then die off disappearing into the dark corners of the net. This is where they fail.
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Isn't language a meme itself?
You could say that Christianity is a meme lost in translation.
) moved on.
