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I agree. We always cry "freedom of religion", but as soon as that religion or belief isn't Christianity, there's a problem. I'm a vet and an atheist, however, I was not an atheist while in the Army, so I can't quite relate to this man's problems. I do hope he wins as I'm tired of the hypocritical standards imposed by Christians in our government.
I am a Vet also . The fanatics you meet in the military are alarming (actually its just people with the power to force Relegion on you and they do). As you know during last couple weeks of boot camp your off on Sundays . For some its the AIT phase .
My DS was normal the next company had a madman . They didnt have to go to church on Sunday but if you didnt go you than had to "improve" the area like cleaning latrines,etc.
So they went to Church or any type service to hear "The word of God" . Again he didnt "force" them but if they didnt go than there were things needed to get done.
The problem I have with this is that it sounds like he was proclaiming his lack of belief as if it was a badge of courage. I don't pray with others either, but if I am at a table where others are praying I simply bow my head and sit quietly until they are done. I'm not sure I see the use in outwardly aggravating the Christians. What I believe, or do not believe, is my choice, as are the beliefs of others...but I do not make a spectacle out of my lack of belief (even if the Christians do). If someone were to ask me "Are you a Christian?" I would say "no, I'm not", but to impose my lack of belief seems almost as arbitrary as Christians imposing their faith.
Hall would have been wise to simply keep his atheism to himself unless asked...much along the line of the gay "Don't ask, don't tell" thing. I do agree that atheists are discriminated against by uber-Christians but I don't see the point in flaunting a lack of belief.
I work for a county in AZ and the Sheriff of this county is a "Reliciougs & Christian Man"...accoridng to how he presents himself. His actions would say differently but that's another topic. The point here is that all of his favored underlings have begun attending his church and praying with him in the mornings, etc. They are doing this to keep in his favor because his Christian subordinates are the ones who get the promotions and favors. Many of them were not religious before this sheriff took office, but, again...another story. Those of us who work here who are not members of his church and do not choose to pray with him, etc, simply keep a low profile and say nothing. If asked, I would be honest with him but I think he knows...he does not ask. It would serve me no purpose to announce to the sheriff and his group that I am not a Christian...it would cause discrimination for me. And it's really not worth the hassle, in my opinion. I am comfortable with my own belief system and I really don't need to prove anything.
Hall should maybe have done the same.
I understand your point but why should he have to keep quite and 'play the game".
I subscribe to why go overseas and fight the Taliban while allowing Americas "Taliban" to get stronger and stronger here and they are
The problem I have with this is that it sounds like he was proclaiming his lack of belief as if it was a badge of courage. I don't pray with others either, but if I am at a table where others are praying I simply bow my head and sit quietly until they are done. I'm not sure I see the use in outwardly aggravating the Christians. What I believe, or do not believe, is my choice, as are the beliefs of others...but I do not make a spectacle out of my lack of belief (even if the Christians do). If someone were to ask me "Are you a Christian?" I would say "no, I'm not", but to impose my lack of belief seems almost as arbitrary as Christians imposing their faith.
Hall would have been wise to simply keep his atheism to himself unless asked...much along the line of the gay "Don't ask, don't tell" thing. I do agree that atheists are discriminated against by uber-Christians but I don't see the point in flaunting a lack of belief.
I work for a county in AZ and the Sheriff of this county is a "Reliciougs & Christian Man"...accoridng to how he presents himself. His actions would say differently but that's another topic. The point here is that all of his favored underlings have begun attending his church and praying with him in the mornings, etc. They are doing this to keep in his favor because his Christian subordinates are the ones who get the promotions and favors. Many of them were not religious before this sheriff took office, but, again...another story. Those of us who work here who are not members of his church and do not choose to pray with him, etc, simply keep a low profile and say nothing. If asked, I would be honest with him but I think he knows...he does not ask. It would serve me no purpose to announce to the sheriff and his group that I am not a Christian...it would cause discrimination for me. And it's really not worth the hassle, in my opinion. I am comfortable with my own belief system and I really don't need to prove anything.
Hall should maybe have done the same.
I HIGHLY doubt he went around telling Jesus to suck it. This is a very unlikely scenario you've created. The fact is the majority of christians will look down on atheists the minute they find out. You don't have to "flaunt" your non belief if there is such a thing. All someone needs to do is see you not praying you've been red flagged. It's as simple as that. We're like the western version of the Taliban.
All someone needs to do is see you not praying you've been red flagged. It's as simple as that.
It's never as cut and dry as that. What is the main Christian sect in the army? Catholic, Bapsist, Methodist....? If everyone is doing a Catholic prayer, then any non-catholic ( believer or not ) will not be praying with them. I have been in that situation ( not in the army ) and just bowed my head and said my own prayer, or a non-believer could just bow their head and think of anything. I don't think it is compromising someone's belief or non-belief to do that. But then again, everyone thinks differently.
The problem is, is that we don't have all the facts. Just a small tidbit of information. And more than likely we never will. Because there's 3 sides to the story, the soldiers side, the Army's side, and the truth.
Everything in the military is "Jesus this.. Jesus that". You might want to look at some of the lawsuits against the Air Force Academy.
The military hires evangelicals to "entertain" the troops. There are chick tracts and xian prayer offered at every single function. Some places are worse than others, but it exists throughout the military.
What I don't understand at this time is why esselcue is posting in the atheist/agnostic forum when it's pretty clear that he doesn't think we have a right to be ourselves in our lives, that we should hide ourselves, comply with the tyranny of the majority and suck it up because any problems are of our own making.
Why should I pretend to be xian? Why should I negate a part of myself and put on a false front so that I'm not harassed? The Jews, Hindus, Buddhists are also discriminated against, but not like the atheists.
This makes me wonder if this situation is something that's unique to the American military or if other nations have a similar problem. Due to American culture I would suspect that as far as western nations are concerned that it's uniquely American but I'll but the military forces in muslim nations would also be pretty fanatical if someone were to mention the fact that they were an atheist.
This topic and my post no. 16 has been pulling on me all day.
Was it better for light skinned blacks to pass for white so that it didn't bother people/racists and made them feel better?
Is it better for gays and lesbians to be closeted to that people/intolerant xians aren't offended by the fact that they exist?
Why should people hide, get out of the way, stay invisible because some people might be uncomfortable?
I find it interesting that esselcue's comment bothers me so much.
It's never as cut and dry as that. What is the main Christian sect in the army? Catholic, Bapsist, Methodist....? If everyone is doing a Catholic prayer, then any non-catholic ( believer or not ) will not be praying with them. I have been in that situation ( not in the army ) and just bowed my head and said my own prayer, or a non-believer could just bow their head and think of anything. I don't think it is compromising someone's belief or non-belief to do that. But then again, everyone thinks differently.
The problem is, is that we don't have all the facts. Just a small tidbit of information. And more than likely we never will. Because there's 3 sides to the story, the soldiers side, the Army's side, and the truth.
I see your point but why should you even have to bow your head ,why be put in that situation?
In the states in some places its so bad that the chain of command from E-5 to high ranking officers make sure the Fort Commander see's them going to services on Sunday they go when he goes.
Ofcourse not all Commanders are Relegious but the ones I had were . Overseas its different if your in a combat zone because they dont bother you but your still going to get "brownie points" by going or atleast letting the Chaplain know when he comes by how much you love God and I imagine no one in their right mind who wanted a career in the military wouldnt go to some type service.
Chain of command isnt like civilian world where you do what you want on your own time they will simply not promote you make a note in your file that "your not a team player" etc.
I actually couldnt fathom an officer above Captain who wasnt into Relegion or atleast played the game otherwise they wouldnt be promoted.
I heard the Marines were the worse when it came to "in your face abuse" of those who didnt attend services which I didnt find a surprise (I was in Army not Marines)
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