Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In answer to Blues question, I would rather have someone give me their views and opinions on why they believe the way they do. To quote scripture doesn't make any sense, I can read it for my self. If one can not express their views and only quote scripture then, in my opinion, there just a parrot.
What the hypothetical person is really asking for is reaffirmation. That's the problem with most Christians; they are insecure in their beliefs, and must needs proselytize and convert others just to reaffirm themselves. They cannot rest secure while there are others that do not share their beliefs; which insecurity belies a fundamental weakness of their faith.
IF you decided you wanted to have a belief in the Christian religion, or any other belief) and you asked a someone a question about his belief do you want his own opinion from his own thinking, his own experience or his own searches or do you merely want him to start quoting scripture that makes no sense to you,or tell you that you need to have faith, which is not something you can conceive of at that point
How would you want to be ministered to in a way that may lead you to believe?
I do not want to be "ministered" to by anybody. That in itself means the other person holds some authority to which I should submit - a proposition which I categorically reject. The attitude that the religious person should minister to the non-religious is really quite offensive and arrogant.
That being said, I find a discussion of why a person believes what they do to be very interesting. When they can discuss why they believe what they do without resorting to parroting ancient scripture, then my respect for them rises, regardless of how baseless I may think their belief actually is. For example, I used to have a co-worker who was a devout orthodox Jew. He revealed in a discussion that he knew very well the problematical origins of the Torah (those Persian priests commissioned by Cyrus the Great) but he wanted to be orthodox and follow the teachings because it gave his life structure and something he could fully immerse himself into and accomplish. My respect rose a great deal for him - altho I personally have no belief in any of the bible. He used his religion and adherence to it to make himself a better person in all ways without losing his autonomy and humanity to it. And he didn't think less of me because I failed to believe in any of it.
When all I hear is scripture, I think they must not really understand the basis for their religion themselves, or they could be having a more intelligent discussion germane to the topic. Furthermore, someone who only spouts scripture, especially the hellfire and damnation parts, tells me that that person is A) living a life of authoritarian fear and have given their minds and will over to the religious "pod" or B) is trying to subject others to their will by using the scripture as a weapon or brainwashing technique to empower themselves at others expense. Neither of those possibilities does much for me in respecting the person as a thinking, feeling, compassionate person.
Fortunately, the extremes of those two possibilities are not the majority of believers and there are lots of gray areas in real people.
Where I am led to think that a religious person's belief system is at least benign or can enrich that person's life is when it informs the person's actions to lead a good life and that includes a lack of fear and hate for those who do not share that belief. For those belief systems, I am interested in how they work and how they shape people's lives - even tho I do not believe in it myself.
I am also interested in the negative belief systems and how they shape and inform people's lives as well, but I get a "watching a train wreck" kind of fascination with it.
What I really have a problem with is hate preaching and out and out lies. But spare me the "ministering" - you've lost the battle before it was attempted just by that arrogant attitude.
In general I would say most of us who are nonbelievers are by definition not very receptive to proselytizing. I have had people try to convert me on several occasions, and it just does not work.
Personally, I think the only way I could be "converted" would be through direct experience. The only "religion" that I could conceivably accept would be Buddhism, and even that to me is more a philosophy of living. No one "convinces" you of the truth of anything, you "see" for yourself through introspection/meditation.
Blue this is a hard question. I think I have the personality which would not want to be lectured too, or given verses from the bible, and to put myself in the position of asking anybody about the Christian religion today is hard to get my mind around.
I would think if such a time occurred the best way would be to let me ask the questions and if they had the answer they could give them to me. I would want their view not the religious view.
When learning about religion and my non religious belief, the answers I found myself and could back up with proof were the strongest base for my belief. I think any change would require the same method.
You listed Christianity as the choice, but I find the only structure I have interest in is Buddhism as a way of life not a religion. I do ask my Buddhist friends questions not about a god, but just on how they control stress, enter peace, and finding the control not to bite off societies heads. I am still working on the last issue.
With Christianity I found the foundation could not support the myth, and not needing the social structure from a church I chose a separate path. I will not return to that path as I know it is the wrong way to live and thus the wrong path. I now look at the dangers of religion and find I can document violent traits over thousands of years of history. When I say I am not sure we can afford to let religion to continue uncontrolled I am quite serious. I see religious wars springing up across the planet, one narrow mind after the other all looking to a different god. How long before they kill us all with their views of an afterlife filled with virgins or some perfect cloud environment?
IF you decided you wanted to have a belief in the Christian religion...How would you want to be ministered to in a way that may lead you to believe?
June, for the most part, agrees with much of what has already been said here. However, if you really want to know the secret as to the most hypothetically effective way of getting June to the front steps of the cathedral, here's the scoop:
Before you even get to the "answer" part, you had better have done something else, first, and that is to have listened and heard me. (And thus, right out of the gate, exists the downfall of the vast majority of those who attempt to "minister" to June.) Truthfully, it is simply beyond me how anyone thinks they are going to minister to an atheist without having at least some remote understanding or sense of who June is. What June's atheism is all about. --Because if you are only hearing a one dimensional question from me, chances are you are only going to provide me with a one dimensional response. (And June is far from being a one dimensional person...)
You also might want to consider being receptive to June. That means you need to remain open to June in all of her lack of belief heathen condition such that she is not made to feel like a commodity. In other words, we're talking about motives, here. If June is actually asking you how this whole Christianity belief system works, then you had better engage her in such a way that conveys to June that you respect where she is coming from, who she is, and have a damn good sense or understanding of where her questions are coming from. If your only motive is to score a "goal" with June, (meaning to convert June) then you and she are dead in the water before either have even opened their mouths.
In being receptive to June, which implies that you are able to hear June, then we need to be able to have a dialogue. June would hope that you would be genuine with her in that dialogue. -Or at least as genuine as she is being with you. June has no problem with your quoting scripture, as more than likely June would be asking you to explain what certain aspects of scripture mean. (Principally, John 1) And in asking you what those aspects of scripture mean, June is looking to know what they mean to you: how they translate into your life and how you live your life. Because June remembers enough of theology, she's more or less got the intellectual understanding, but she is not asking about that...Hypothetically speaking, of course.
Lastly, June can tell you most sincerely that the last time June asked a mere question regarding "belief" and Christianity, (in a hypothetical sense, of course) it did not have a good outcome. It had a rather dreadful one. More dreadful, I would surmise, for the individual who was attempting to do the "ministering" as none of the above were able to take place. That was sad. --And the end result was the inadvertant reinforcement of June's atheism, along with silence. June simply gave up, threw in the towel, and from the experience learned to not ask questions.
June's post shows exactly what harm and deep hurt that a couple of selfrighteous, christians(?) who hear nothing but the echos of their own loud and crazy, insulting proclamations coming back from ..well, nowhere..The tragedy of that is the possible stereotyping of all christians..I sincerely hope that this thread gets read by more than just the people in this forum, because there are some valuable lessons here.
I would love to sit with June and watch her beautiful geese in flight and silently ponder the miracle and wonder of their perfection. No words needed ..just sharing an amazing and beautiful thing of nature..and connecting with each other through our silence..
The tragedy of that is the possible stereotyping of all christians..
I would love to sit with June and watch her beautiful geese in flight and silently ponder the miracle and wonder of their perfection. No words needed ..just sharing an amazing and beautiful thing of nature..and connecting with each other through our silence..
For what it's worth, June does not tend to stereotype Christians, or any other groups of individuals for that matter. --At least she tends to go out of her way not to, if for no other reason than the fact that she grew up in an environment that taught her about stereotypical thinking and thought patterns, and the harm that all too often comes about as a result of that...
As for the geese:
June loves the musical sound of the geese as they fly over her house in the pre-dawn, barely lit and silent hours of the morning...Their honking as they fly overhead help to remind her...
Troop has a very valid question in the other forum..Yet he is not getting a valid answer.. Even though I do believe in God, I understand Troops frustration in trying to get an "honest" answer..So here is a question that I want to ask all my atheist friends here..Remember guys, I am not gonna try to "save you" I just want your opinion on a hypothetical question..
IF you decided you wanted to have a belief in the Christian religion, or any other belief) and you asked a someone a question about his belief do you want his own opinion from his own thinking, his own experience or his own searches or do you merely want him to start quoting scripture that makes no sense to you,or tell you that you need to have faith, which is not something you can conceive of at that point
How would you want to be ministered to in a way that may lead you to believe?
When I start hearing scripture I lose any shred of being convinced. To me scripture quoting says that they can't think of an answer from themselves, so they are referring back to a source they know (believe) is solid; like their own little toehold of security in the 'argument'.
If anyone wants to convince me that their religion is legit they need some outside sources.
If I were to say that Abe Lincoln was a racist, or that Columbus was responsible for the death of millions you would at least want me to provide a link or two, preferably not from Wikipedia or a myspace blog right?
So in short, I want the opinions and experiences of the person, not just words from a book that many take how they want.
..I sincerely hope that this thread gets read by more than just the people in this forum, because there are some valuable lessons here.
Unfortunately, it is my long experience that those who most need to hear and understand are the ones least likely to...
Christianity is not monolithic (or really even monotheistic) and the adherents come in all stripes from horrid to wonderful and everything in between. As do the adherents of all major religions. That's the trouble with stereotyping and rigid stances.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hypothetical Answer:
I just want your opinion on a hypothetical question..
) and the adherents come in all stripes from horrid to wonderful and everything in between. As do the adherents of all major religions. That's the trouble with stereotyping and rigid stances.
