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If that was the case than I suspect I gave him plenty to feed off of.
GCSTroop: I'm almost speechless. Your earlier post (#4, 10-12; too big to re-post here) left me in a state of joy. It was almost religious in its focus and clarity. I'm quite serious; it resonated and clarified my mindset so well that I may just have to print it and post it on the ceiling above my bed. These were not "confessions" but rather a very positive evaluation and definition of why many of us are atheists. I truly hope that the demagog Christians can read it and learn something positive and worthy of true respect. And that we atheists are not evil incarnate, sent here to do harm.
And to your quote above; if someone were looking for guffaws or sound-bites to use against us, they certainly won't find any in your post. Unless they take things completely out of context.
GCSTroop: I'm almost speechless. Your earlier post (#4, 10-12; too big to re-post here) left me in a state of joy. It was almost religious in its focus and clarity. I'm quite serious; it resonated and clarified my mindset so well that I may just have to print it and post it on the ceiling above my bed. These were not "confessions" but rather a very positive evaluation and definition of why many of us are atheists. I truly hope that the demagog Christians can read it and learn something positive and worthy of true respect. And that we atheists are not evil incarnate, sent here to do harm.
And to your quote above; if someone were looking for guffaws or sound-bites to use against us, they certainly won't find any in your post. Unless they take things completely out of context.
Amazing post. Thanks!
Oh, well thank you very much indeed! I can't remember ever being left with such kind remarks in public as to a post I've made. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm somewhat flattered to be quite honest with you.
Oh, well thank you very much indeed! I can't remember ever being left with such kind remarks in public as to a post I've made. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm somewhat flattered to be quite honest with you.
Thanks Again.
Thanks for the honest response. I appreciate your openess to share your thoughts without sarcasm or unkind remarks. You were not disagreeable, and what more can you ask of someone with whom you disagree? You have obviously thought a lot about this stuff.
You made a few different comments about the nature of God, or gods (voyeur, peeping tom, etc.) You say you don't believe in a god like this, and, for what it's worth, I don't either. I think it was CS Lewis who said to some of his critics, "Tell me about the God you don't believe in. CHances are I don't believe in him either." (Not a verbatim quote, but similar).
Thanks for the honest response. I appreciate your openess to share your thoughts without sarcasm or unkind remarks. You were not disagreeable, and what more can you ask of someone with whom you disagree? You have obviously thought a lot about this stuff.
You made a few different comments about the nature of God, or gods (voyeur, peeping tom, etc.) You say you don't believe in a god like this, and, for what it's worth, I don't either. I think it was CS Lewis who said to some of his critics, "Tell me about the God you don't believe in. CHances are I don't believe in him either." (Not a verbatim quote, but similar).
Your welcome. I do try my best to refrain from being overly sarcastic or unkind but I do fail on occasion.
As far as the CS Lewis quote goes, to me, it's all relative to the person in so much as what they want to believe. Or, actually, it seems to me that their own prejudices and judgments are often projected onto the God they worship. I think, that as a result of what we might call 'typical' societal morals and interactions, people are often inundated with certain beliefs about various things and how they determine whether or not they are "sinful".
It is clear as day that most Christians have no real modicum for determining what constitutes a "good" Christian. I've met some that feel dancing is a sin and I've met others who feel that as long as you believe in God that's all that matters. Somewhere in the middle of all of that you have this vast deciduous forest of things that people believe in that seem to comprise some haughty notion of a rather judgmental God.
Things such as whether or not reading Harry Potter is a sin, using a Ouija Board is talking to the devil, or any other ridiculous inanities that people seem to come up with seem to make me awfully confused as to what a "good" Christian is. And, typically, those who are often the most judgmental of your actions also seem to have the most judgmental of Gods in which they believe. Have you ever noticed that?
Overall, I think that the essential premise of God is not a good one as it gives people the perceived notion of having a "God-given right" (no pun intended) to cast judgments on others. To put it another way, and to give an extreme example of the utmost, I get the impression of "I'm not prejudiced but my God hates black people." And, to me, it is one of the fatalistic flaws of belief in and of itself. It allows one to project their own prides and prejudices onto this deity/God/being and not take responsibility for their own agendas. They lay everything on the hands of their God up to and including their prides and prejudices.
Now, let me ask you a question, if you don't mind. What do you believe?
God is an atheist (omnipresence has it's perks). Tell the agnostics the news. Atheists are always the most fervent believers in God. That said I don't believe in religion, I just believe in me (and that is the real quandary). Close your eyes and wait until you see. ---If I used one of those smiley things it would be smiley---
Oh, well thank you very much indeed! I can't remember ever being left with such kind remarks in public as to a post I've made. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm somewhat flattered to be quite honest with you.
Thanks Again.
I just had to re-read your post again this morning with my coffee. Maybe I'll memorize parts of it for future debates, as we see so often in bible passage quotes in Christian comebacks.. As in "Yes but don't you remember GCSTroop 2;line4, in which he proclaims "Blah blah blah...?".
You must have thought about this a lot to refine the philosophy to such a fine degree.
Oh by the way, about that $200 I asked to borrow (I'm a little light this week...).
Just kidding, folks. He/she didn't pay me. Honest .
[quote=tic_constant;5655241]I was wondering how you would respond to these atheist's quotes in regards to morality and meaning. The first is by Aldous Huxley, the author or "A Brave New World". It is from his book "Ends and Means". (I'm not entirely sure Huxley is an atheist)
"Science does not have the right to give to me my reason for being. But I am going to take science’s view because I want this world not to have meaning. A meaningless world frees me to pursue my own erotic and political desires.” [\quote]
Science attempts to give an explaination for where the universe came from, almost like cause and effect, it does not attempt to give any reason or meaning to the universes existance. Thats where religion steps in.
I really have no problem with the idea of a meaningless world/life. Any meaning that anyone or religion would give me would obviously not be my own, and therefore forced upon me. And even the meaning i personally give my life is subject to frequent change. I think its impossible for any individual to have an inherent meaning to their life. People can and do give there life meaning every second of every day, but that meaning is subject to change. I find that it is this frequent change of of one's personaly life/world meaning that makes it impossible for anyone's life to have one true meaning. Since there is no one true meaning to one's life, make your own and be happy with it, and if your not change it.
Your welcome. I do try my best to refrain from being overly sarcastic or unkind but I do fail on occasion.
As far as the CS Lewis quote goes, to me, it's all relative to the person in so much as what they want to believe. Or, actually, it seems to me that their own prejudices and judgments are often projected onto the God they worship. I think, that as a result of what we might call 'typical' societal morals and interactions, people are often inundated with certain beliefs about various things and how they determine whether or not they are "sinful".
It is clear as day that most Christians have no real modicum for determining what constitutes a "good" Christian. I've met some that feel dancing is a sin and I've met others who feel that as long as you believe in God that's all that matters. Somewhere in the middle of all of that you have this vast deciduous forest of things that people believe in that seem to comprise some haughty notion of a rather judgmental God.
Things such as whether or not reading Harry Potter is a sin, using a Ouija Board is talking to the devil, or any other ridiculous inanities that people seem to come up with seem to make me awfully confused as to what a "good" Christian is. And, typically, those who are often the most judgmental of your actions also seem to have the most judgmental of Gods in which they believe. Have you ever noticed that?
Overall, I think that the essential premise of God is not a good one as it gives people the perceived notion of having a "God-given right" (no pun intended) to cast judgments on others. To put it another way, and to give an extreme example of the utmost, I get the impression of "I'm not prejudiced but my God hates black people." And, to me, it is one of the fatalistic flaws of belief in and of itself. It allows one to project their own prides and prejudices onto this deity/God/being and not take responsibility for their own agendas. They lay everything on the hands of their God up to and including their prides and prejudices.
Now, let me ask you a question, if you don't mind. What do you believe?
Off to bed now. I'm a "nightshifter" too.
What do I believe? Well, I would say I'm pretty orthodox christian, by that I mean believe what the Bible teaches. I understand what you are saying about the way Christians act sometimes, projecting onto God their own faults and I would say, the faults of their own fathers. This craps things up. I beleive that every human searches for joy, be it in religion, sports, girls, guys, the lumen of a needle or the barrel of a gun. I don't think joy is an option for humans, we need it and want it. There are really four question, I think, that everyone needs and will ask themselves if they have higher brain functioning and even 5 minutes of solitude in their lives. Where do we come from? Why am I here? What is wrong with this place and me (why do I receive and cause suffering)? and what happens when I die?
From the avenues of thought I have looked down, the christian worldview seems to answer those questions in the most satisfying manner, that seems to correspond with reality. Satisfying doesn't mean true, necessarily, but I believe there is good evidence to trust the claims of the Bible and put my faith in it. I think it was Kant, maybe, who said if anyone wants to be serious about God they need to divorce reason (paraphrase)(coincidentally, he believed in God) but I disagree. I think that is a comon thought amongst A&A. Also, life has a way of testing what we believe. No one believes or disbelieves in a religion or worldview in a vacuum, we all come with life experiences and biases and personality.
I also believe there is a truth, that two opposing worldviews cannot coexist. There either is a God or not. That is one thing I appreciate about yourself and others o this forum. No wishy washy "define your own reality and the universe and history will adjust accordingly" sort of thing. Lastly, I don;t think philosophies should be judged by their abuse. I have said that before (Augustine said it originally, I think) but it's so true. All of the behaviors of christians you listed above are true, but they are christians abusing the philosophy of christianity. Anyway, thanks for asking.
I felt strange first time. Second time I thought it's from the other room. Third time was scaring. Fourth time was a check. :P But Norman knows. It's difficult to travel in time, 'cause you've got to travel a lot. So.. Norman.. I can hear you know. Don't worry. Be happy.
"Science does not have the right to give to me my reason for being. But I am going to take science’s view because I want this world not to have meaning. A meaningless world frees me to pursue my own erotic and political desires.”
Well, in a way I can almost agree. I am pretty sure that god in all his wonders wouldn't make the point of life to go out and make the man's living for him, work the prime of our lives away to keep up with the Jones' and save a few bucks to pay off our nursing home bills. Just the other day I saw on the news that one of the last survivors (maybe THE last survivor) of the Titanic was selling her last memento to pay her nursing home bills. THAT can in no way possible, in any universe or another, be the point of ANY life...
Quote:
Thomas Nagel, professor of philosophy at NYU:
“In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions… in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper – namely the fear of religion itself… I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God, and naturally, hope there is no God. I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that (The Last Word).”
In my experience, most of the well informed super christians, are well informed in areas where the ideas can take wide swings and in otherwise generalizations. And just because someone is well informed, it doesn't mean they are well informed about everything, or even much of anything. I have thought for a long time that people now a day have what I call the keyhole view of life. They know a great deal about a few specific things, but the width of what they know isn't very wide, in other words, their world views are 40 miles deep and an eighth of an inch wide.
But like someone else already said, Not all Atheists are the same, nor do they all have the same views. I understand that not every church goer is like Fred Phelps...
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You're v. welcome. Now then...
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