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So you mean to tell me that coming to the conclusion the elves exist because I have cookies is logical as long as I truly believe it to be so?
That is not what I stated at all, I suggested two things. 1.) In what sense logic is objective is not clear, 2.) logic is not a given, it can be challenged by observation.
Within a particular community at a particular time, there are certainly a set generally accepted rules of inference. But there is in a similar sense a set of ethical norms too. But this does not mean that either is "objective".
While your heart may be in the right place, your list of benefits is based on the assumption that religion is the sole cause of societal ills, let alone that all religion is the same. It also implies that people will magically 'wake-up' if religion where to disappear (or be out-lawed?), or that somehow societies would be better off if they have never had it while ignoring the fact that some people are just irrational to begin with.
I believe people that have 'awakened' will abandon religion; not the opposite. And, no, I don't believe religion should be outlawed. I just believe that those whom embrace logic will reject religion.
I'd bet everything that I have that I know hundred times more about logic than you, yet its unclear in what sense logic is "objective" to me. Certainly, among speakers of the same Language there are general rules that are followed....but does this make it objective? Not really. How about across different languages? Its unclear.
Also, the logical foundational of science is not fixed and can be modified with new observations. Nothing is sacred, not even classical logic.
Off hand, I'd say the both of you are cult-figure followers of Mr Spock and the only thing that's being accomplished here is the debate over which one of you has the pointiest ears. Why don't you both give it a rest and discuss the topic at hand which could actually be an interesting one ???
I believe people that have 'awakened' will abandon religion; not the opposite. And, no, I don't believe religion should be outlawed. I just believe that those whom embrace logic will reject religion.
But the question is, where has this so-called logic gotten our world ??? Where's the historical proof that such an idealogy will succeed ??? I agree and find most religion is a failure, but so is the other side. Unless you point to some historical success track record.
Last edited by bluepacific; 04-30-2009 at 01:26 AM..
I dunno, weren't most societies throughout history religious? And, most failed. I know, some may cite Soviet Russia or Hitler's Germany as atheist, but, come on, two (debatable) atheist societies hardly constitute a statistical sample given the numerous samples of religious societies.
I dunno, weren't most societies throughout history religious? And, most failed. I know, some may cite Soviet Russia or Hitler's Germany as atheist, but, come on, two (debatable) atheist societies hardly constitute a statistical sample given the numerous samples of religious societies.
Actually for the sake of arguement, let's dump the nasty extreme atheistic societies, and let's deal from 1990 onward. What about so-called success of the Secular Progressive Nations" as it has been pointed out. Where's the success ???
Given that you want to dismiss the extreme atheist societies, again debatable, and ignore the extreme religious societies, couldn't we assume that secularist are a recent phenomenon? And couldn't we further assume that secularist societies are still trying to get it right with only a hundred years experience while religious societies have mostly failed with thousands of years experience?
Given that you want to dismiss the extreme atheist societies, again debatable, and ignore the extreme religious societies, couldn't we assume that secularist are a recent phenomenon? And couldn't we further assume that secularist societies are still trying to get it right with only a hundred years experience while religious societies have mostly failed with thousands of years experience?
Forget the religious. That's what this is about. Give an example since 1990 when the ever so superior intellectually enlightened Secular Progressive Movement has successfully run the show in any country. Forget the Atheistic extremes of the past, we all get it. Let's move forward. Give an example of what the Secular Progressive future holds and prove it by an outstanding example for us all to have faith that it will work for the betterment of humankind. After all, this is what we are being fed here.
Forget the religious. That's what this is about. Give an example since 1990 when the ever so superior intellectually enlightened Secular Progressive Movement has successfully run the show in any country. Forget the Atheistic extremes of the past, we all get it. Let's move forward. Give an example of what the Secular Progressive future holds and prove it by an outstanding example for us all to have faith that it will work for the betterment of humankind. After all, this is what we are being fed here.
What would be the benefits? Here are a few off the top of my head:
1. Higher test scores in science.
2. Less discrimination against homosexuals, women, other races, etc.
3. No religious wars; although, I concede that wars over property, power and money would still occur.
4. More respect for other forms of life since were all animals.
5. Laws passed/repealed on the basis of modern logic rather than ancient 'wisdom'.
Don't forget Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, and a whole host of others who wished for the exact same things as you!
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