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Hopefully fans of Atlanta weather will have the IQ to comprehend your post.
I suppose I'm that "smartypants".
My point was not that deserts aren't found around the 30 N latitude line. My point was that not all areas around that line are desert. Even using the picture you provided, it's easy to see that only about half of the world's landmass in close proximity to the thirty degree line of latitude is desert, and even less when you speak of areas directly on that parallel. Parts of eastern Asia is one such example.
You also fail to take into the equation cold deserts, which are deserts nonetheless, but of which are not included on your map.
Atlanta is in no danger of running out of water. Atlanta's problem is that the federal government has hamstrung this region with bureaucratic nonsense, laws leftover from decades ago, which don't deal with real issues of future growth.
I think that we can also agree that Georgia saw very little benefit from the TVA project,relative to other states, which helped to build countless reservoirs for Alabama and Tennessee, but of which Georgia sees little benefit from. In fact, Georgia has fewer lakes/reservoirs, on average, given our land mass, compared to all states that surround us. Alabama has the reservoirs of the Tennessee, Alabama, and Coosa Rivers. Tennessee has countless lakes from the Tennessee River. The Carolina's have plenty of water, courtesy of damming the Catawba. Florida has numerous lakes. Meanwhile, Georgia, on the other hand, has only one big lake that it can call its own in the northern part of the state, Lanier, and we're told that we can't withdraw more than a small amount from it for our needs. The rest goes to two states, Alabama and Florida, which have a glut of water, all to fulfill so-called needs of those states decades ago, or for silly environmental reasons (mussels in Appalachicola Bay).
The other in-state reservoirs are very small compared to those in neighboring states. The other large reservoirs we share with neighboring states, such as Hartwell and Thurmond with South Carolina, George with Alabama, or Seminole with Florida.
Steelers10 in regards to Miami's urban growth development boundary it was set in the 1970s way before suburban sprawl began marching west towards the Everglades. The county commisioners then had the foresight to know that unbridled growth was not sustainable with the growth the county was expiriencing at the time. Water resources certainly was an issue back then too.
The South Florida Water Management Agency also limited growth in Broward & Palm Beach counties as well. The tri county metro area has about the same population as that of Atlanta yet the Miami MSA only occupies roughly 1100 square miles which will never be expanded. I don't know the size of the Urbanized area of Atlanta but I'm sure it's a lot larger than 1100 sq. miles.
With that being said how would the Atlanta metro be able to implement a urban growth development boundary when you are practically dealing with over 20 counties who all want growth as well?
This is what has to be explained to "the Atlanta can grow forever crowd". Lake Okeechobee supplies water to Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties. But outside of water treatment and canal maintenance, water management costs are cheap. South Florida is too flat to have a dam even if it wanted to. The water from Lake Okeechobee just free flows down the canals and empties out into the ocean. It doesn't have to be shared by any other state or any interests that are not already in the tri-county area.
The issue is looking at the growth rates of these "SunBelt" metropolitan areas. The tri-county South Florida metro area (Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach) has only grown 10.7% since 2000. Washington D.C., 14.8% since 2000 (even lower if you factor in Baltimore metro). Tampa-St. Pete 14.6%, and San Diego metro only grew 8.5%.
Atlanta grew 28.9%. Dallas-Fort Worth grew 24.9%. Phoenix grew 34.2%. Las Vegas grew 38.3%!
Now Charlotte can get away with its very high growth rate because it's metro area is still small with just as abundant water resources. Also, light rail had to be forced down the throats of metro residents (typical of a conservative SunBelt city) but it is now wildly successful, there are very few different county governments to deal with (unlike Atlanta metro), and Charlotte is still in its highway building phase.
Orlando and Las Vegas are on the verge of water crisis. But I guess Orlando (which gets almost exactly the same amount of precipitation as Atlanta but pumps its right out of an aquifer right out from underneath the city and doesn't even have to bring it in from somewhere else) doesn't serve as a red flag to Atlanta. But because the people in Atlanta continue to be in denial, I will continue to post this link for:
Just because there are eight cities ahead of Atlanta doesn't mean Atlanta is in good shape!
But read the person who posted right after you. This person is talking about how I didn't take "cold deserts" into account. Well, in terms of "hot" or "warm" desert, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Tucson, San Antonio, Dallas-Fort Worth, Houston, and Los Angeles are all in worse shape than Atlanta. In case this person missed the point, Atlanta's climate could easily shift to be a closer approximation to a Houston, Dallas, or New Orleans (Atlanta is not that far off) and it would be a catastrophe. In terms of "cold desert", Albuquerque and Santa Fe are not big and will never grow at a rate similar to Atlanta so the point is moot. Not sure where this person was going with all of that after my explanation.
But this person's response is typical of those in denial within Atlanta. This person is talking about what is going on in Tennessee, South Carolina, and Alabama. None of those states neighboring Georgia have a metropolitan area anywhere near as large as Atlanta or growing as fast. And the only metro area in Florida experiencing similar growth is in Orlando and the consequences there are immediate. Sinkholes forming from water drawn out of the aquifer and not being replaced are happening all the time. And if you read the article, the sinkholes in Orlando metro are happening ALONG U.S. 27. In Miami, the growth boundary prohibits growth outside of the Krome Avenue/U.S. 27 (Okeechobee Road) corridor.
So Atlanta needs to stop worrying about how neighboring states are managing to struggle to get along without water management and needs to look at how the urban growth boundary in Miami increased densities. If the resources aren't being managed then growth just has to be abated. As I said in my very first post, metro Atlanta needs to start making some very "adult" choices about growth management.
My point was not that deserts aren't found around the 30 N latitude line. My point was that not all areas around that line are desert. Even using the picture you provided, it's easy to see that only about half of the world's landmass in close proximity to the thirty degree line of latitude is desert, and even less when you speak of areas directly on that parallel. Parts of eastern Asia is one such example.
You also fail to take into the equation cold deserts, which are deserts nonetheless, but of which are not included on your map.
Atlanta is in no danger of running out of water. Atlanta's problem is that the federal government has hamstrung this region with bureaucratic nonsense, laws leftover from decades ago, which don't deal with real issues of future growth.
I think that we can also agree that Georgia saw very little benefit from the TVA project,relative to other states, which helped to build countless reservoirs for Alabama and Tennessee, but of which Georgia sees little benefit from. In fact, Georgia has fewer lakes/reservoirs, on average, given our land mass, compared to all states that surround us. Alabama has the reservoirs of the Tennessee, Alabama, and Coosa Rivers. Tennessee has countless lakes from the Tennessee River. The Carolina's have plenty of water, courtesy of damming the Catawba. Florida has numerous lakes. Meanwhile, Georgia, on the other hand, has only one big lake that it can call its own in the northern part of the state, Lanier, and we're told that we can't withdraw more than a small amount from it for our needs. The rest goes to two states, Alabama and Florida, which have a glut of water, all to fulfill so-called needs of those states decades ago, or for silly environmental reasons (mussels in Appalachicola Bay).
The other in-state reservoirs are very small compared to those in neighboring states. The other large reservoirs we share with neighboring states, such as Hartwell and Thurmond with South Carolina, George with Alabama, or Seminole with Florida.
Plus if some moonshiner did not put the marker in the WRONG spot, GA would have rights to the TN river as well.
Some of you need to realize that the Atlanta metro is "20 counties" only because Georgia counties are very small compared to other states. Fulton and Dekalb could really be one county in another state, and it would have over 1.7 million people.
And if the metro area only uses 1% of the water from Lake Lanier, what is Florida's and Alabama's problem?
Some of you need to realize that the Atlanta metro is "20 counties" only because Georgia counties are very small compared to other states. Fulton and Dekalb could really be one county in another state, and it would have over 1.7 million people.
And if the metro area only uses 1% of the water from Lake Lanier, what is Florida's and Alabama's problem?
Alabama has half the population of Georgia, but probably double the amount of freshwater, by volume, than Georgia. Yet, Alabama still wants their "fair share" from OUR LONE LARGE LAKE.
Some of you need to realize that the Atlanta metro is "20 counties" only because Georgia counties are very small compared to other states. Fulton and Dekalb could really be one county in another state, and it would have over 1.7 million people.
And if the metro area only uses 1% of the water from Lake Lanier, what is Florida's and Alabama's problem?
The whole "counties" issue is bewildering. Nobody told Georgia to allow more counties than any other state besides Texas. That is an anomaly that is unique to Georgia; the legacy of the county-unit system has plagued everything in Georgia from politics to education to growth. People in this Atlanta Forum rail against Clayton County. Why does Clayton County even exist? On the flipside, North Fulton wants to secede and reconstitute Milton County. It would be nice if someone in Roswell or Alpharetta could crack open a history book to read that the only reason why the northern part of Fulton is even remotely viable is because Fulton County took it on during the Great Depression to keep it from collapsing. Now that Fulton County can use its help, now good 'ol Milton is finally feeling independent!
I'm not sure what Alabama's problem is. Alabama seems to have several problems. I think Alabama always believed Birmingham should have become what Atlanta eventually became. Maybe they are still holding out hope that if metro Atlanta does add 2 or 3 million people, some are bound to spillover from Carroll County into Randolph and Chambers Counties, Alabama. They can dream can't they?
But why is using more than 1% of the Chattahoochee a problem? This a description of the river in the 19th century prior to being dammed up:
"Even though valley residents relied on the river for transportation, they learned to be patient with it. In the dry summer months the main stem of the river became shallow in many places. Every summer commerce slept. This inconvenience was forgiven, however, because the river usually rose again just as it was needed most. In the autumn as farmers ginned their newly picked cotton, the rains resumed to swell the river. By Christmas the river was usually full and frolicsome, ready and willing to shoulder the bounty of the autumn's harvest and deposit it at the coast. From there creaky ships set their sails to capture the ocean breeze loaded with Chattahoochee cotton."
You can read the history of the Chattahoochee here. But in a nutshell, Atlanta always wanted the Chattahoochee navigable to connect it to the Gulf of Mexico. Due to the cost of the Vietnam War that never came to fruition. But the lower Chattahoochee River is still useful like it is in the above description. However, because the navigational depth of the lower Chattahoochee is only 9 ft, any greater usage of water by Atlanta would make the lower Chattahoochee completely useless to South Georgia. Florida is the the state that had to allow the US Army Corp of Engineers to keep dredging the Apalachicola to even make it and the lower Chattahoochee navigable for barges and this averages out to cost $30,000 per barge. So despite claims that Georgia's climate has no relation to a desert, its rivers are ephemeral just like those in the American Southwest and the lower Chattahoochee would actually have dried out if not for the flood control measures of the US Army Corps of Engineers, so they can't spare too much more withdrawals if they want to use the river for anything. The Mississippi River would have stopped running past New Orleans 50 years ago and dried up had the US Army Corps of Engineers not diverted 70% of the water away from the Atchafalaya River to flow down the disappearing river. But these are just ugly details of history soon forgotten or ignored.
So, I think Georgia needs to be really concerned about Florida. I think poster Miami Rob made this point abundantly clear. Imagine appearing before again the federal judge in July 2010. The statement from the plaintiff Florida:
"Your honor, we also have a very large city, Miami, and a metropolitan area, South Florida, that is the largest in the state. We would like Miami and the rest of South Florida to serve as a catalyst for growth. South Florida was the fastest growing metropolitan area in the U.S. for most of the 20th century and we could have easily drained the Everglades and sprawled out all over the place. Instead we proactively established the urban growth boundary and became the 9th most densely populated metro area in the country by the year 2000. Miami no longer even has parcels of land big enough to put football stadiums behind high schools and the canals are of no commercial use whatsoever.In addition to the job the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers did on Lake Okeechobee, they also channelized the Kissimmee River drawing much needed freshwater away from Central Florida.
The federal government almost allowed Florida Republicans to convince Bill Clinton to not allow the EPA to designate the St. Johns River an American Heritage River and restore loss of the river's capacity, partially inflicted by the suspended Cross Florida Barge Canal Project of, you guessed it, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Now our fastest growing metropolitan area in the state as well as the entire Central and North Central Florida will be in complete water crisis by 2020. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers built the Buford Dam and Atlanta has used the Chattahoochee River as a catalyst for unabated growth for the past 40 years. The Apalachicola River (of which the Chattahoochee is a tributary) was dammed up by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to form Lake Seminole for the exclusive benefit of the state of Georgia. The state of Florida had to deny the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers a permit to further dredge the Apalachicola in 2005 just to benefit Georgia barge traffic to the Gulf of Mexico. Your honor, we can't control what Georgia does but we would like you to step in on our behalf to keep the USACE from destroying the concept of freshwater in our state."
The judge: "Well state of Georgia, the USACE never actually said you could use Lake Lanier for a metropolitan water supply. The U.S. Congress has been asked to deprioritize barge shipping on the lower Chattahoochee because South Georgia was completely wasting water and money while they allowed metropolitan Atlanta to languish during the drought. Atlanta has grown tremendously due to access to Lake Lanier. However, this growth seems unchecked; Atlanta will soon surpass Chicago to become the second largest metropolitan area in terms of land area (second only to New York) and only has the 66th highest density of any U.S. metropolitan area. Georgia, what steps have you taken to end this seemingly age old feud between most urban north Georgia and mostly rural south Georgia without dragging Alabama and Florida into it? Georgia, what steps have you taken to mitigate growth and avoid a water supply meltdown like South Florida had to do when they were experiencing the same drought you did?"
Georgia:
Hello Georgia?!?
Last edited by Steelers10; 02-26-2011 at 05:40 PM..
Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC) on Wednesday predicted the metro area will add some 3 million people over the next 30 years.
That would bring the 20-county metro Atlanta area’s population to 8 million -- about the current population of Manhattan and roughly double metro Atlanta’s population in 2000 -- by 2040.
Only about 1.5 million people live in Manhattan. NYC's 5 boroughs have 9 million residents, with Brooklyn having the most (around 3 million or so) and then Queens.
Do you think the freeways and arterial highways will still be primitive when 8 million people are trying to get around?
Some of you need to realize that the Atlanta metro is "20 counties" only because Georgia counties are very small compared to other states. Fulton and Dekalb could really be one county in another state, and it would have over 1.7 million people.
And if the metro area only uses 1% of the water from Lake Lanier, what is Florida's and Alabama's problem?
Interesting fact... Dekalb and Fulton (the central part) use to be one county. The northern part, before it was Milton, was actually parts of Forsyth, Cherokee and Cobb Counties.
This is an interesting little site to look at the county changes over time Georgia County Maps and Atlases
Near the bottom or links to actual map images. The 1836 map is really interesting IMO.
Two things I noticed from early Georgia history. Whenever a city developed to be large enough ... the state gave it it's own county.
It seems to be about after the 1850's when things started to get out of control and alot of rather small parts of counties started breaking away.
Also... just to clear up something from the 1% issue of water use.
It is actually 1% of the water that makes it to Florida state line... not 1% of what passes the dam at Lake Lanier. This also includes water flows from the smaller Flint River Basin. In fact most of the current water storing capacity (pre court judgement) on the river system is designed to maintain constant flow to river, so the supply is huge. That 1% isn't just metro Atlanta and it isn't just drinking water. That reflects the whole upper Chattahoochee Basin, small towns, exurban areas, industrial cooling, and cooling of power plants.
Water passing through Lake Lanier only accounts for 9% of the system's total water flow (and about 5% of the Basin area), but 60% of the system's water holding capacity is in Lake Lanier (the other 40% capacity are in multiple reservoirs down river). What this means is... even without Lake Lanier we would still be in competition with Lake Lanier during years where we can college water to store. This would mean Atlanta area use approximately 1/9th of the water that passes through Lake Lanier. (Consider the wording carefully.... --passes through/river flow-- not 1/9th of capacity).
Now ... some of the irony of this... Atlanta as an urban area... helps feed more storm water into the Chattahoochee south of Lake Lanier during rainfall due to storm drain systems. In reality Atlanta adds back a good amount of water that would otherwise evaporate a way or make it into the soil if Atlanta didn't exist. The main problem with this (and in other urban area) It is water that washed across roads, through industrial districts, and other commercial areas. It is dirtier than water that doesn't runoff of urban surfaces.
The main problem with Lake Lanier during droughts when it has to generate electricity is has to release so many gallons of water every day to maintain river flows into the Gulf, however it has to do it consistently throughout the day, it can't just release a day's worth of water at once. Power generation does the opposite. It stores up water and then releases the water at once. The river system isn't (and never was) large enough to generate electricity all day long. It generates over a really short time that is a peak period, so the strain on the total water pool of Lake Lanier is double hit, rather than single hit. It is releasing large amounts of water in two different ways for two different purposes. A dam further south could do two things. Increase the water holding capacity for the part of the dam system designed to keep the river flowing and capture water released from Lake Lanier just for power generation... and then use that water to help keep the river system flowing throughout the day. This would take off the double hit from Lake Lanier and and greatly increase municipal water holding capacity with no change in the Atlanta area. (No need for long aqueducts or the Tennessee River)
Now the Army Corp of Engineers isn't stupid.... they are aware of this. In fact, it is what helped kick start the current legal litigation with Alabama. The engineers looked at building a very small dam almost immediately south of the Buford Dam. The only purpose of the dam was carry the capacity of the amount of water released for power generation and then slowly drain it over a 24 hour period. This would remove the double hit on Lake Lanier draining daily. You know those environmental assessment reports they do in the early planning stages of any project? transit, roads, etc... Well it didn't pass the assessment. Essentially the main problem is the area south of Lake Lanier was too urbanized or rapidly urbanizing. However, this recapture of released water is really only needed during times of drought and when Lake Lanier of below full pool. During most years.... there is enough water we can generate electricity and do everything else. It is only times of drought and when Lake Lanier if refilling is there a problem. The other thing that could happen during drought seasons is stop guaranteeing constant river flows between Buford and West Point during droughts. It doesn't affect water at the Florida State line and navigation. However, this isn't really needed and would require small reservoirs for towns and industrial sites further south. Water would still be released daily from Lanier... but just during power generation times.
This same idea is also why I mentioned Gwinnett County project earlier. They now have a treatment facility pumping water into Lake Lanier. It has little to do with how much water makes it to the Florida state line and how much water Atlanta uses, but it can keep more "municipal water storage" in Lake Lanier much longer.
Now this issue is even further complicated... there are already other major dam sites for the river system between Lake Lanier and the Gulf. Buford dam generating electricity during a drought has little to nothing to do with how much water crosses the Florida State line and enters the gulf on a daily basis during a drought. However, it repositions water faster out of Lake Lanier further down stream quicker. The recapture of water released from power generation has more to do keeping the part from Buford to dam and West Point flowing constantly.
Anyways... that is a general rough story of how Lake Lanier's capacity is used.
Just wanted to get that out before some naysayers will be in here later explaining why it is better for us to move to less humid areas with less rain and should be concerned about our impending doom of turning into a desert in the next few thousand years.
Now ... some of the irony of this... Atlanta as an urban area... helps feed more storm water into the Chattahoochee south of Lake Lanier during rainfall due to storm drain systems. In reality Atlanta adds back a good amount of water that would otherwise evaporate a way or make it into the soil if Atlanta didn't exist. The main problem with this (and in other urban area) It is water that washed across roads, through industrial districts, and other commercial areas. It is dirtier than water that doesn't runoff of urban surfaces.
The main problem with Lake Lanier during droughts when it has to generate electricity is has to release so many gallons of water every day to maintain river flows into the Gulf, however it has to do it consistently throughout the day, it can't just release a day's worth of water at once. Power generation does the opposite. It stores up water and then releases the water at once. The river system isn't (and never was) large enough to generate electricity all day long. It generates over a really short time that is a peak period, so the strain on the total water pool of Lake Lanier is double hit, rather than single hit. It is releasing large amounts of water in two different ways for two different purposes. A dam further south could do two things. Increase the water holding capacity for the part of the dam system designed to keep the river flowing and capture water released from Lake Lanier just for power generation... and then use that water to help keep the river system flowing throughout the day. This would take off the double hit from Lake Lanier and and greatly increase municipal water holding capacity with no change in the Atlanta area. (No need for long aqueducts or the Tennessee River)
This same idea is also why I mentioned Gwinnett County project earlier. They now have a treatment facility pumping water into Lake Lanier. It has little to do with how much water makes it to the Florida state line and how much water Atlanta uses, but it can keep more "municipal water storage" in Lake Lanier much longer.
Now this issue is even further complicated... there are already other major dam sites for the river system between Lake Lanier and the Gulf. Buford dam generating electricity during a drought has little to nothing to do with how much water crosses the Florida State line and enters the gulf on a daily basis during a drought. However, it repositions water faster out of Lake Lanier further down stream quicker. The recapture of water released from power generation has more to do keeping the part from Buford to dam and West Point flowing constantly.
Anyways... that is a general rough story of how Lake Lanier's capacity is used.
Just wanted to get that out before some naysayers will be in here later explaining why it is better for us to move to less humid areas with less rain and should be concerned about our impending doom of turning into a desert in the next few thousand years.
Not my words or opinion:
The Upper Chattahoochee and Flint riverkeeper say the Georgia legislature Thursday took a major step backward in resolving the state's water supply disputes with its downstream neighbors. A bill was passed to expedite the construction of a reservoir, which is in part an amenity lake in the midst of a projected upscale subdivision in metro Atlanta. This step is certain to undermine negotiations with Alabama and Florida over the water in the Chattahoochee River Basin, according to Sally Bethea, Upper Chattahoochee Riverkeeper. "If this reservoir is built, its operation will result in a significant and entirely unnecessary loss of water to the river and communities downstream in Georgia, Alabama and Florida," Bethea said. "It threatens our efforts to develop an equitable, water sharing agreement and will negate the water savings achieved through the new conservation bill." Three cities in South Fulton County applied to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers last year to build a 440-acre reservoir on Bear Creek, a tributary to the Chattahoochee, and pump 32 million gallons of water per day (MGD) from the river to fill the impoundment. Federal agencies, the city of Atlanta and numerous environmental organizations objected to the construction of the project in comments to the Corps. "Thirty-two million gallons per day is a significant percentage of what Georgia and Florida are arguing over at the Florida line," said Gordon Rogers of the Flint Riverkeeper. "This is a greedy water grab by metro north Georgia that harms the Chattahoochee and puts more pressure on the Flint to make up the difference."
Also not my words or opinion:
WHAT IS AN INTERBASIN TRANSFER (IBT)?
An IBT occurs when water is withdrawn from one river basin and used, consumed, or discharged into another basin. In metro Atlanta, these transfers take place in almost every county, but they incur real economic and environmental costs — and currently, there are not sufficient safeguards in place to protect our rivers and downstream communities.
The Gwinnett County project mentioned above would be great if that is what always took place. But an IBT is essentially when water is taken out of the Chattahoochee or Flint, used, and then pumped into the Oconee River Basin which flows toward the Atlantic Ocean. It is actually a good thing for soil to absorb rainfall because it seeps down the path of least resistance and causes rivers to be perennial rather than ephemeral. All of the storm drainage systems and sprawling blacktop promotes maximum runoff. So I continue to miss how this has no impact on the lower Chattahoochee Basin.
But all of the posters saying I am a naysayer keep talking about what can be done. Who would dispute how effectively the Chattahoochee River Basin could be managed with comprehensive water management planning and a lot of money? I'm talking about what is happening now and what isn't being done, NOW. So yes, a "dam further south" could do many things. But as you can see from the 1st quotation above, a "dam further south" is not going to happen.
So don't tell me that the "greedy water grab by metro north Georgia" is not impacting river transportation and irrigation downstream in South Georgia, Florida, and Alabama. Georgia has to tell it to the judge. But when the southern half of your own state is not on your side I don't see a very convincing defensive argument impending.
Excellent posts by Steelers10, Stars&StripesForever and cwkimbro. Thanks!
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