The Three Major Issues Holding Atlanta Back

[cityfilms]

has one thing going for it, a lot of fortune 500 companies

A lot of Fortune 500 companies are also going bankrupt. Revenue has nothing whatsoever to do with profits. AT&T, Coca-cola, ga-pacific, etc. etc. are all shining examples of companies struggling to stay afloat and continuously having to come up with pathetic business models to stay afloat: Most of these business models are just scams that don't involve real innovation (look at At&T and coke, for example... all they do every year is come out with new gimmicks to take advantage of a massive dumb U.S. population)... and the companies that can't come up with the latest gimmick will be bought out or buy out another company just to stay afloat..

These fortune 500 companies you admire don't employ intelligent innovators... At least not here on the East Coast. In the West it's different....

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by architect77

Georgia has missed the boat anyway. It hasn't invested in its hub status for logistics, and surrounding states are quickly chipping away at Atlanta's dominence. You would think that billion dollar engines to Georgia's economy would warrant some thought and support and planning, but like you said, Georgian's individual property rights are far more important than Georgia's future prosperity. A perfect example, by the way, of why Georgia won't ever become more than what it is today.

Land acquisition and weaving through development in the periphery of NC's metros goes on everyday. They are building urban loops around about 10 cities. The final leg of Raleigh's outer loop hasn't been finalized yet, but it's not the monumental construction feat you make it out to be to weave through the periphery of exurbia to provide a needed bypass and funnel away truck and through traffic.

From NCDOT's playbook:

If you spend some time studying the aerial maps of that route and the route of Atlanta's northern Arc you will see you are actually undercutting your original arguments.

I see a few problems with you trying to draw parallels to that corridor and the northern arc.

Atlanta's northern Arc corridor is already much more developed across the whole length of the corridor than the corridor you are spotting out. The problem NC will have is clearly the western leg near Holly Springs, but once they get past that... there is still enough undeveloped land to plan a route. Atlanta doesn't quite have this option... we are about 15 years too late. Raleigh, while being a very successful city, is still much smaller and younger as far as developing as a major city.

The next problem is... it is obvious from what you posted NCDOT is getting ready to buy and condemn residential properties. That is why they are explaining the process and making a pitch on why it is necessary.

It is clear they will be able to carry out that project much easier and cheaper than Atlanta's original northern arc corridor, but even then they will have to do all of the things I said Atlanta would have to do. Buy many residential properties, divide some neighborhood, and spend more money to build through a floodplain (the western part of the route they highlight starts in an area that appears to be the upper part of Middle Creek that has deterred development in that specific place.

now to be fair to the NCDOT... there logic is probably... if we eat these higher costs near Holly Springs now.... we can have an easier, cheaper time buying/building through the rest of the corridor, than if we wait for it to be developed too.

I agree we have missed the boat to build the northern arc cheaply and easily. I agree we aren't investing enough in transportation/logistics (and haven't in the past 20 years or so). Where I think we will probably disagree is the northern arc will do to spread/sprawl out future suburban/exurban growth and less to fix the existing congestion problems in our already developed area. I also think it will be harder and more expensive to build than you think. These areas are already so far away from the city's main core that commuting to the core is unfeasible. What it would do is help suburban to suburban commuters (North Fulton to Gwinnett and vice versa). My problem is we could spend that money better and move just as many commuters by turning 3 or 4 existing routes into super arterials between Gwinnett and N. Fulton and S. Forsyth....(just using that one area as an example). (which we are already kind of in the early stages of doing on routes like Pleasant Hill with the widening and new intersection with Buford Highway). The advantages would be that it keeps more cars off of I-85 and GA 400 to get to their final destination, which are already too congested. The routes would also be much shorter and promote people to make shorter and more direct commutes.... rather than drive north to get to a freeway... cut over... and then drive south on an already congested freeway.

I also tend to advocate for commuter rail. It can move more people greater distances. It can move people to the city's core, even from far away. It will also add the benefit of expanding rail freight capability, which is also congested through Atlanta and very important for our economic development.

One last thing I want to end with... I particularly want to respond to these types of comments:

Originally Posted by architect77

A perfect example, by the way, of why Georgia won't ever become more than what it is today.

While we need to be more progressive and innovative, I think you are being a bit too pessimistic about our region. Perhaps this pessimism is part of the problem.

We need to remember two things I think many people are forgetting.
-We aren't the only place hit hard by the recession. While Texas has done well thanks to its energy sector, many other places are also having the problems we are. It is more of a factor of the recession than our cities competitiveness to other cities.
-We still have a very valuable population and infrastructure and we are geographically well positioned.

But your comment doesn't add up... Before the recession we were --rapidly-- growing. We weren't having trouble competing, even though we do have increased competition. It is clear our current problems are centered on the recession and how the recession affected us. This isn't to say we don't have issues to overcome, but I just don't think it portrays our position in this country correctly.

[architect77]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

If you spend some time studying the aerial maps of that route and the route of Atlanta's northern Arc you will see you are actually undercutting your original arguments.

I see a few problems with you trying to draw parallels to that corridor and the northern arc.

Atlanta's northern Arc corridor is already much more developed across the whole length of the corridor than the corridor you are spotting out. The problem NC will have is clearly the western leg near Holly Springs, but once they get past that... there is still enough undeveloped land to plan a route. Atlanta doesn't quite have this option... we are about 15 years too late. Raleigh, while being a very successful city, is still much smaller and younger as far as developing as a major city.

The next problem is... it is obvious from what you posted NCDOT is getting ready to buy and condemn residential properties. That is why they are explaining the process and making a pitch on why it is necessary.

It is clear they will be able to carry out that project much easier and cheaper than Atlanta's original northern arc corridor, but even then they will have to do all of the things I said Atlanta would have to do. Buy many residential properties, divide some neighborhood, and spend more money to build through a floodplain (the western part of the route they highlight starts in an area that appears to be the upper part of Middle Creek that has deterred development in that specific place.

now to be fair to the NCDOT... there logic is probably... if we eat these higher costs near Holly Springs now.... we can have an easier, cheaper time buying/building through the rest of the corridor, than if we wait for it to be developed too.

I agree we have missed the boat to build the northern arc cheaply and easily. I agree we aren't investing enough in transportation/logistics (and haven't in the past 20 years or so). Where I think we will probably disagree is the northern arc will do to spread/sprawl out future suburban/exurban growth and less to fix the existing congestion problems in our already developed area. I also think it will be harder and more expensive to build than you think. These areas are already so far away from the city's main core that commuting to the core is unfeasible. What it would do is help suburban to suburban commuters (North Fulton to Gwinnett and vice versa). My problem is we could spend that money better and move just as many commuters by turning 3 or 4 existing routes into super arterials between Gwinnett and N. Fulton and S. Forsyth....(just using that one area as an example). (which we are already kind of in the early stages of doing on routes like Pleasant Hill with the widening and new intersection with Buford Highway). The advantages would be that it keeps more cars off of I-85 and GA 400 to get to their final destination, which are already too congested. The routes would also be much shorter and promote people to make shorter and more direct commutes.... rather than drive north to get to a freeway... cut over... and then drive south on an already congested freeway.

I also tend to advocate for commuter rail. It can move more people greater distances. It can move people to the city's core, even from far away. It will also add the benefit of expanding rail freight capability, which is also congested through Atlanta and very important for our economic development.

One last thing I want to end with... I particularly want to respond to these types of comments:



While we need to be more progressive and innovative, I think you are being a bit too pessimistic about our region. Perhaps this pessimism is part of the problem.

We need to remember two things I think many people are forgetting.
-We aren't the only place hit hard by the recession. While Texas has done well thanks to its energy sector, many other places are also having the problems we are. It is more of a factor of the recession than our cities competitiveness to other cities.
-We still have a very valuable population and infrastructure and we are geographically well positioned.

But your comment doesn't add up... Before the recession we were --rapidly-- growing. We weren't having trouble competing, even though we do have increased competition. It is clear our current problems are centered on the recession and how the recession affected us. This isn't to say we don't have issues to overcome, but I just don't think it portrays our position in this country correctly.

Atlanta's population tripled from 1989 to now, yet 0 new roads have been built. All of the explosive growth was never a result of smart planning/initiatives of Georgia's government.

Hundreds of towns and counties acting as separate governing entities, without any collective or unified collaboration or vision is why this TSPLOT nonsense continues , and it's why Georgia is losing out to its neighbors who are progressing forward for the betterment of their states' futures.

I don't care if I-85's and I-75's through traffic gets diverted to Macon. It would be the single greatest answer to Atlanta's congestion providing relief in every metro county in every direction.

It's asanine for 3 of the nation's most heavily-traveled interstates to converge on top of (and share) the same roads with a city of 6 million people. There should be at least some separation. yes?

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by architect77

Atlanta's population tripled from 1989 to now, yet 0 new roads have been built. All of the explosive growth was never a result of smart planning/initiatives of Georgia's government.

Hundreds of towns and counties acting as separate governing entities, without any collective or unified collaboration or vision is why this TSPLOT nonsense continues , and it's why Georgia is losing out to its neighbors who are progressing forward for the betterment of their states' futures.

I don't care if I-85's and I-75's through traffic gets diverted to Macon. It would be the single greatest answer to Atlanta's congestion providing relief in every metro county in every direction.

It's asanine for 3 of the nation's most heavily-traveled interstates to converge on top of (and share) the same roads with a city of 6 million people. There should be at least some separation. yes?

I'm trying to take your arguments seriously and respond to them in kind...


but too many of them just don't add up and revolve around single ideas.

The amount of through traffic on an interstate is very little compared to the peak hour traffic flows. If through traffic could be bypassed around Atlanta (w/o Atlanta traffic/spreading sprawl)... there would be little advantage to typical rush hour commuters...as much as they hate being next to trucks on the highway......

Inversely the advantage would actually be for long-haul freight truckers. They would have the ability to get around Atlanta any time of the day.

while the small decreases in traffic aren't necessarily nothing.... it is more important to examine what any change does to commuter traffic... if it drives sprawl out in the wrong way.....it really defeats the purpose for everyone... commuters and freight trucks alike

but what I really must call you out on big time... is...

Originally Posted by architect77

Atlanta's population tripled from 1989 to now, yet 0 new roads have been built.

What I am about to say is coming from a person that overall agrees we haven't invested in transportation to meet the growth we have had. In many ways I am sympathetic to these types of arguments as I have made them myself many times.

But for ANYONE to say the Atlanta area has had 0 new roads built since 1989.... clearly doesn't know what they are talking about or they are clearly not taking any these planning arguments seriously.

I mean ... after this remark... I'm almost having trouble justifying that you live in the area or perhaps you stay in a small area and haven't noticed what goes on throughout the whole region.

I hate saying these so directly because it seems confrontational...

but at the end of the day.... if an apple is sitting on a table... and someone else is telling you its an orange.......its a still an apple

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by architect77

Atlanta's population tripled from 1989 to now, yet 0 new roads have been built. All of the explosive growth was never a result of smart planning/initiatives of Georgia's government.

Assuming you mean the Atlanta metro instead of the city of Atlanta proper, the above general assertion is false.

Just in my local area (the southern half of Cobb County), both the East/West Connector and the Macland Connector have been built since 1989, and the former by itself has had a huge impact on the accessibility of southern Cobb County.

The latter was just opened this summer (a project based on Cobb's own SPLOST), and I really don't know how much impact it has had or will have. It's a nice road, tho. I've been on it once just to check it out.

Now, I realize you may be specifically referring to interstates and not just major roadways. If so, you may have a case.

[architect77]

I was referring to freeways/interstates. I can't think of any other than the Ronald Reagan parkway or Ga400 through Buckhead. This is starting to get tiring.

When a metro area adds millions to its population, a 5-year old child would see the need for more road capacity. The AJC reported last week that a new exit near GA400 and I-285 was first new interchange since 1993. (The GA316 project in Gwinnett must have been overlooked).

One of the main purposes of I-75's toll project was originally to separate all of the 18-wheel truck traffic which was cited as one of the main problems for the corridor, so don't tell me that a bypass wouldn't help. Bypasses are very quick and easy to build (and comparatively cheap) through undeveloped land. NC is currently building hundreds of miles of new highways, with probably more than 500 miles of new interstate-quality roads in the last 20 years.

What I wanted everyone to glean from those NCDOT pics was that they have study areas and look at alternative routes, and get feedback from the public. They do SOMETHING, rather than nothing.

On another note, when I moved to NYC in 2000, the toll for the Holland/Lincoln tunnels was $4. IT'S NOW $12! just to enter Manhattan. Unbelievable.
Whopping new tolls take effect on New Jersey-New York roadways - latimes.com

[testa50]

Originally Posted by architect77

I was referring to freeways/interstates. I can't think of any other than the Ronald Reagan parkway or Ga400 through Buckhead. This is starting to get tiring.

When a metro area adds millions to its population, a 5-year old child would see the need for more road capacity. The AJC reported last week that a new exit near GA400 and I-285 was first new interchange since 1993. (The GA316 project in Gwinnett must have been overlooked).

I agree with you we need more freeways and exits. For what it's worth, from the limited time I've spent talking to people who would be considered experts in Georgia's road funding and investment, adding new interchanges to existing roadways (entry points and exit points) is STRONGLY discouraged by the USDOT. For non-interstates, it's a lot easier (hence the new interchange on GA-400).

Georgia got kind of unlucky in this regard. When our interstates were first developed, our planners took to the philosophy that exits should only be every 3-5 miles. In other places, they put an exit basically where ever possible (which increases congestion with more merging activity)--there is actually something to be said for Georgia's approach. But as the suburbs grew outwards, we end up with lots of suburban areas that are underserved in terms of exits, and now the regulatory regime makes it extremely difficult to go back and change it. I wish it were a lot easier to go back and build more exits.

The answer to me is clear: the superarterial. They are almost as good as interstates and can be established piece-by-piece. Tara Blvd in Clayton becoming a superarterial is one of the best projects on the whole transport referendum.

To address something you said earlier:

It hasn't invested in its hub status for logistics, and surrounding states are quickly chipping away at Atlanta's dominence.

I work in logistics and I don't see this. Area freight terminals have reported record container volumes this year. Atlanta's position is far more strategic than North Carolina's for both railroads (CSX and NS). Lowe's just announced a big distribution center in Rome, and Amazon is opening a huge one next to the VW factory in Chattanooga (which is more or less part of the Atlanta logistics market, as the I-75 corridor is pretty well-developed all the way into Tennessee, and undoubtedly uses our warehouses and freight terminals a lot).

[coolieandre]

The top 3 issues that I think hold us back are:
1. Transportation; We have some BIG city attractions, shopping and overall things to do in the city or Metro area but I feel we don't have enough transportation options to get there. Not just trains and buses but taxis and trolleys on major roads would be nice and things like that.
2. Density; I feel the city should stop expanding further out, and densify and perfect what we have... Communities would become more tightknit and we'd have a good mix of Big Box/ Chain businesses and Mom and Pop... Also people could walk to do things like go to the library, post office grocery store, pharmacy, etc....
3. This one is hard but somehow try to make people here more open minded. A lot of people in Atlanta feel threatned when you talk about transportation issues or constructing things that they cannot relate to or see the importance of. This is a City and it can grown clean and diverse with the right mindeset. But it starts with the people. And until the people of ATL become more open- minded instead of close minded we will always be comparing ourselves to diverse cities of culture such as Chi, SF, Boston, etc....

[coolieandre]

I don't live in Suwanee by choice. What does that have to do with anything?....