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You can make all the excuses and rationalizations that you want, but the only truly fair tax system is a flat income tax or replacing that with a national sales tax. That way, the more you make or spend, the more the gov't takes. No deductions or exemptions. The Democrats in Congress and the President will never go along with it, because it is based around an assumption that my income and your income are equal in importance and should be taxed at the same rate.
This is not a partisan issue, if I remember in 2001 and 2003 then President Bush reduced income tax rates, doubled the child tax credit from $500 to $1000 and increased the earned income tax credit-deductions that also helped the working poor. Then President Obama came and added the Making Work Pay credit and the American Opportunity credit. So it looks like both parties are responsible. I am all for a national sales tax only-although I dont think this would work with our bloated government.
I also read an article that stated " Nontaxable returns from people with incomes between $75,000 and $100,000 went from 4,025 in 1996 to 476,624 in 2009 — an increase of almost 12,000%. More than 1,400 millionaires didn't pay income taxes in 2009, either. So its not just the poor that are using tax loopholes/deductions to get around paying federal income tax.
To the PEOPLE who THINK they understand the message of this MOVEMENT... you have no clue what YOU are talking about.
Occupy Atlanta is part of the Occupy Wall Street protests. We are not advocating for communism or the USSR (I made a when I read that). We simply want to completely overhaul the government, and use it to take back what is owed to the PEOPLE. We want to PUNISH these fat cats who caused this mess in the first place...bankers, doctors, lawyers, politicians--anyone who thinks they can make a bunch of money and get away with it.
We want to banish these CORPORATIONS and the GOVERNMENT that allows them to influence political decision-making. We want to show them that this is a new AMERICA, where the government is not GOING to let these CORPORATIONS and their GREED go unchecked.
To give those an update, we had a telecast of Presidential Candidate Roseanne Barr speaking live from Occupy Wall Street to Occupy Atlanta. I couldnt record her message, but it was INCREDIBLE. This woman has it right! What she said is very similar to the points she made about the proper punishment for bankers and the rich who wont give up thier money--beheading.
And by the way, this post was made with the contributing ideas of many of my fellow occupiers sitting around me.
WE ARE THE 99%!
This Occupy Wall Street is scary, as it is reminiscent of 1917 Russia. The "return" of the guillotine? Punishing private citizens for success (i.e., "making a bunch of money") by seizing their assets? Forcing individuals and corporations to pay their "fair share"? Re-education camps?
The Democrats were stupid by coming out in support of this "movement" before seeing what it was really about. Once independent voters (and maybe even some Democrats, if there are any non-Socialist ones left) see what this Occupy thing is all about, and then find out President Obama supports it, it's going to get interesting. I imagine there will be a lot of back-pedaling, but it will be too late.
As for violence, I think it is extremely naive to think this movement won't end up there. A gathering of a bunch of young marxists almost always results in that. Besides, if it can happen in Greece, France, and England, it can certainly happen here.
Lastly, to the fools who think this movement doesn't have marxist/communist underpinnings, get your head out of the sand, go on Youtube, and see what is actually being said in these "general assemblies."
A generation ago a single income could buy a home/raise a family, and ship them to college. They didn't need a college degree or dual incomes. Clearly globalization has changed that equation but not everyone is setup to become a high earning professional. Telling everyone to go to college and then subsidizing it w/ student loans is why University of Phoenix et al are creating a generation of worthless online "educated" grads along w/ millions of broke dropouts unwilling to do manual jobs. There are millions of people that would flunk out of any college you put them into and our system simply isn't setup to provide vocations for the 1/2 of people that can't finish college now.
I'm not saying people shouldn't work hard to achieve but the existence of a middle class is what made so much possible in our country and that middle class wasn't college educated. It now takes far more investment to accomplish that same level of income all the while the wealthy have grown exponentially. I'm hardly a barefoot hippie but I can't fathom how difficult it must be to be in the 0-50k range that everyone is vilifying (lot of them are retirees as well) for not paying federal income taxes.
The difference when comparing generations is that people from past generations didn't grow up treating luxuries as rights. Not everyone should go to college, I am not advocating that. I suggest either getting an education (a worthwhile one, not some online crap) or getting a skillset. Become a welder. Get some IT skills. Learn computer programming. Become a skilled mechanic. Any of these skills can lead to a quality wage. If you are living off of less than $50,000 I have no sympathy for your complaining if you have cable TV, a cell phone, a car newer than 10 years old, have more kids than you can afford, etc. 99% of people are in their situation due to factors in their control. It is about personal responsibility and it is about making good choices.
Am I heartless? No. I believe that charity should come from private non-profits, not the government and I make donations to back this philosophy up.
I always (and you can search my posts) make the qualifying statement that 50% pay no federal income taxes. Still, even when you look at the other taxes mentioned, the lower your income, the less state tax you pay as well.
For me, the biggest slap in the face is the bald face lie that our President and others keep repeating, that somehow "the rich" pay less taxes than the "middle class" and that "the rich" do not pay "their fair share" or some other rhetoric to that effect. As the AP (certainly not a conservative media outlet) recently reported in a fact check, that's not the case.
In fact, when you look at the numbers, not only do higher income wage earners pay more in FICA and Medicare, but they pay the most in federal income tax, in state income tax, and generally they pay capital gains taxes and other taxes as well. If they run a business, many times they pay business related license fees and other taxes in addition to what they pay personally. When they pay taxes on dividends, that money is actually taxes twice, once at the business as income, and again at the personal level as dividend income or capital gains.
You can make all the excuses and rationalizations that you want, but the only truly fair tax system is a flat income tax or replacing that with a national sales tax. That way, the more you make or spend, the more the gov't takes. No deductions or exemptions. The Democrats in Congress and the President will never go along with it, because it is based around an assumption that my income and your income are equal in importance and should be taxed at the same rate.
Are you basing this on gross taxes paid or as a % of their gross income? If I'm not mistaken, people w/ higher incomes are usually able to shift their income to non-taxable/advantaged sources. You ignored things like muni bonds and various life insurance schemes (legal according to the IRS) and quite a lot of deductions to minimize their effective tax rate. FICA caps at 107k right now so it's regressive for anyone above that.
Corporations are taxed twice but don't forget their effective tax rate is far less than the marginal rates they like to claim. Also, capital gains is capped at 15% vs. those of us wage earners (no FICA on that either). Additionally, they enjoy special protections (they're people but yet the underlying people aren't culpable). If corporate taxes were straightforward, large corps wouldn't all have teams of CPAs and lawyers being paid millions to minimize liability.
I think it is time to get back to basics. "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand should become required reading in the public schools.
Instead of these "protesters" whining because there are people that are far more successful than they are, perhaps they should emulate them and try to become one of the awful people making too much money. It will give them a fresh perspective.
For all of those people who hate the evil rich I would recommend that they boycott them by refusing to work for them. From now on they should only seek employment from poor people.
Your words are akin to placing pearls before swine, Brother Watson. All that these oldheads on city-data are concerned with is preserving their real or perceived economic might(more than likely it's perceived).
When I starting hearing Bill O'Reilly last week trying to bash the "Occupy Wall Street/Atlanta" movement, I already knew that the rightwing propaganda machine was in full swing. I just wish that some people weren't so predictable with their complaints. It's like the complainers on city-data are repeating the talking points from the conservative press verbatim.
It's funny though, that when that fake populist "Tea Party" movement was going on, no one cared whether or not that movement had a leader. No one asked what that movement was concerned with. As long as the Tea Party movement represented the demographics of the traditional power brokers, i.e. old white men, it was all gravy.
But now that the youth are starting to demand a little economic justice, everyone is concerned. The oldheads are shaking in their liver spots!
I say let the complainers have their word. It's all disingenuous nonsense anyways.
What movement was ever orderly? From the Boston Massacre in 1770 to the ratification of the U.S. Constitution in 1788 was years of chaos. And people on here are complaining about the lack of order in the Occupy Wall Street/Atlanta movement? Some of these folks on here really take the cake sometimes.
No problems. For me though, I support the youth. They are the future.
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Originally Posted by RandyWatson13
I honestly am starting to believe most people are complete dumbasses in regards to politics b/c the first thing thrown out of most people's mouths anytime they disagree with with the left is "OMG SOCIALISM" and "OMG COMMUNISM" when they have no idea what either one is.
They seem to protect and endorse corporate and wealthy "socialism" and "Communism" but if any regular American wants equal rights, playing field, regulations, they scream those two terms.
Americans are allowed to demonstrate peacefully. For most anything. That is part of what makes this country great. If you are just going to just bash people for standing up for what they believe in...
YOU ARE THE COMMUNIST
Last edited by AcidSnake; 10-10-2011 at 03:42 PM..
Funny, I was in NYC last weekend and went to that area twice (City Hall and Brooklyn Bridge specifically) and did not see or hear them- except in the media. I know several Wall Streeters who are laughing all the way to the bank so I don't think their intended target is too concerned nor will what they are doing is going to illicit change. Change will only happen when we all vote them all out.
Also, we want jobs to stay in America, but we are unwilling to pay extra for goods made here. We can't compete with the low labor costs of foreign countries. I am making a major effort to buy only products made in the USA.
I wish there were more people in Atlanta that thought (and spent their dollars) this way.
Funny, I was in NYC last weekend and went to that area twice (City Hall and Brooklyn Bridge specifically) and did not see or hear them- except in the media. I know several Wall Streeters who are laughing all the way to the bank so I don't think their intended target is too concerned nor will what they are doing is going to illicit change. Change will only happen when we all vote them all out.
Also, we want jobs to stay in America, but we are unwilling to pay extra for goods made here. We can't compete with the low labor costs of foreign countries. I am making a major effort to buy only products made in the USA.
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Originally Posted by DTL3000
I share a lot of disgust and frustration about what went down on Wall Street with these folks but I don't like how it appears that the far left is hijacking the movement. I was hoping that this would be a more unified movement that would include all sorts of people but it looks more and more like a movement for Che Guevara T-shirt-wearing graduate students. I saw where they "renamed" Woodruff Park Troy Davis Park. Way to polarize conservative working class Georgians who might otherwise be on your side, guys.
I don't think you can make the blanket statement that ALL these people are anti-corporate. And saying someone should eschew anything produced by a corporation before criticizing them is like saying someone shouldn't ride a bus to an environmental rally because it consumes fossil fuels and pollutes the environment. I do agree that corporations have far too much influence on American politics and that shareholders have far too much influence on corporations. Wall Street was a big Get Rich Quick scam that only a handful of people benefited from when it all went to hell. Of course there is plenty of blame to go around and ALMOST EVERYONE let greed get the best of them.
I guess a lot of it has to do with the impression that people's lives seem more under the control of the huge, unpredictable forces of the markets rather than their own will nowadays. Most folks don't understand how Wall Street works but they do understand that whatever went down left them in a lot worse shape as far as their future is concerned. I think a lot of folks want more transparency and moderation in the financial industry.
I was doing some research this weekend about the "Occupy" movement and according the to most sites, the movement is, in fact mobilized around a central demand: get corporate dollars out of politics. Stop letting major corporations donate beaucoups amounts of money to policymakers to push through legislation that only benefits their financial interests. Our country is one "for the people, by the people", not "for the corporations, by the corporations". Conservatives are trying to confuse and water down the "Occupy Wall Street" message, when it's really quite simple.
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when I read that). We simply want to completely overhaul the government, and use it to take back what is owed to the PEOPLE. We want to PUNISH these fat cats who caused this mess in the first place...bankers, doctors, lawyers, politicians--anyone who thinks they can make a bunch of money and get away with it.
