Group Wants Atlanta-Savannah Passenger Rail Line (Macon, Jackson: station, electricity, rated)

[JPD]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

I'm guessing that Amtrak ran the numbers and they don't agree. It would help to first see just what is the price for a ticket.

I didn't realize you were one of those people who trusts everything the government number-crunchers say.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by arjay57

For all you rail fans out there. Get your public hearing shoes on.

(snip)

Oh man. I'd love to go to that, but I fear that town hall crashers may show up in droves...

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

Oh man. I'd love to go to that, but I fear that town hall crashers may show up in droves...

If you don't show up because you fear the opposition, aren't you conceding victory to to them?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by JPD

I didn't realize you were one of those people who trusts everything the government number-crunchers say.

Almost as a rule the government projections tend on being optimistic with regards to ridership, economic impact, etc. to these projects, so if they aren't even good enough to justify this project, one could interpret that as an extra strike against the project.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

Again, it isn't about making money. Infrastructure is an investment. The returns aren't always monetary, but if there is a gap, the utility provided from that service needs to justify the tax pay subsidy. I think you are getting hung up too much on the term profitable. I think it is being used here as a substitute by many to refer to the overall operating loss generated by the line. The line won't be profitable in that sense. However, as I said above, the operating loss per rider needs to be reasonable. The state taxpayers should not be spending $40 or $50 to subsidize a rail trip.

For example, the Amtrak route that runs through Atlanta has an average ticket subsidy of about $100 per rider. I DO NOT think that the taxpayers should subsidize any rail trip $100, when per my calculations the taxpayers subsidize less than $0.02 per passenger mile of highway transportation. That $100 subsidy would pay for 5,000 miles of highway driving.

Why would a ATL-SAV route be any better managed or more profitable (and by that I mean, generate less of a loss per rider mile) than Amtrak?

I agree. Nobody (at least no sensible person) wants a boondoggle.

However, I'm not ready to write off passenger rail on that basis yet. While I appreciate the estimates you've mentioned, I'd still like to see more specific data on the pros and cons. No offense, but I think at this point we can't do much more than talk in generalities, and those can be argued both ways.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by JPD

I didn't realize you were one of those people who trusts everything the government number-crunchers say.

At least they are crunching the numbers. Plus the private sector guys crunch the numbers too and they aren't making a move either.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I agree. Nobody (at least no sensible person) wants a boondoggle.

However, I'm not ready to write off passenger rail on that basis yet. While I appreciate the estimates you've mentioned, I'd still like to see more specific data on the pros and cons. No offense, but I think at this point we can't do much more than talk in generalities, and those can be argued both ways.

One other point about Europe. In Europe they make it tough to own a car so people turn to trains.

[StAubin]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

At least they are crunching the numbers. Plus the private sector guys crunch the numbers too and they aren't making a move either.

They are in Florida.

Look up all aboard Florida, it is a private rail company that plans on starting an orlando to Miami passenger line by 2014.

If that is successful I would not be surprised if Csx or ns roll out their own passenger brands.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Well, I think it has been argued several times (not by you) that private enterprise would jump in and run passenger trains if they were profitable, and that otherwise they are a no go.

True, CSX and Norfolk Southern are not interested in break even ventures. But with the number of money losing routes Amtrak has, a break even route would be good for them.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

True, CSX and Norfolk Southern are not interested in break even ventures. But with the number of money losing routes Amtrak has, a break even route would be good for them.

I wonder if there would be some way to start some sort of public-private partnership rail operation where private companies that have a long track record of operating efficiently would provide all services and receive some subsidy from the government to make up the difference (assuming the difference was a small number). I'd much rather have a proven freight rail company run the operation than some bloated, failed government entity like Amtrak run the day to day ops. CSX of Norfolk Southern runs the operations and collects the fares and just gets a 10% subsidy from the government or some similar figure that compares to other forms of transportation. Some compromise like this would be a solid solution if you ask me... but then again, the numbers would have to work and I doubt they do.