The Death of the Fringe Suburb (Atlanta, Buckhead: homes, neighborhoods, movie theaters)

[BringBackCobain]

Originally Posted by Cameron H

OR the wife and I could drive five minutes or less to Applebee's -- sit down or take-out parking, depending on the babysitter situation. It may not work for you -- and I'm a fortysomething DINK who lives in Midtown -- but it's a lifestyle that's very appealing for the vast majority of the middle class. I don't see any radical changes on the near horizon.

I think that's what a lot of people don't understand about GenY. We love our cars and take-out just as much as prior generations. The difference is that we place a higher value on the option of being able to walk to retail/dining. Not being dependent on your car is very liberating.

The same goes for the commute to work. When GenYers do move to the suburbs, it will be to those that allow them either to drive to work, or ride MARTA. Again, it's the option, and not necessarily the walking or transit itself, that's desirable.

Of course, someone who is lazy and overweight has no desire to walk, so they will place no value on having the option to do so. I wonder which came first, the preference for driving and Applebees, or the obesity and laziness?

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by BringBackCobain

I think that's what a lot of people don't understand about GenY. We love our cars and take-out just as much as prior generations. The difference is that we place a higher value on the option of being able to walk to retail/dining. Not being dependent on your car is very liberating.

The same goes for the commute to work. When GenYers do move to the suburbs, it will be to those that allow them either to drive to work, or ride MARTA. Again, it's the option, and not necessarily the walking or transit itself, that's desirable.

Of course, someone who is lazy and overweight has no desire to walk, so they will place no value on having the option to do so. I wonder which came first, the preference for driving and Applebees, or the obesity and laziness?

I agree....
For a few, including myself, I'd go a step further. I see some appeal to living in an area with transit accessibility and having a single family car rather than 1 car per person.
I'm also more likely to be ok with renting a Uhaul van a couple times a year when needed to not have to own a truck.

[RoslynHolcomb]

I can't believe he didn't mention one very important factor in that article; white flight. Seeing as that's what drove a good deal of the flight to the suburbs/exurbs in the first place I'm not sure why he left it out. There is still a fairly large percentage of the white population which won't tolerate being in the minority and if that means moving out to East Bum#$%^ Egypt they're willing to do it, no matter what the cost. Given the way the media is drumming up panic over the "browning of America" I don't see the exurbs dying anytime soon.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

Meh- I still don't buy the "rising gas prices" thing. For one thing, gas prices still haven't risen anywhere near the levels that the doom-and-gloomers keep prediciting they will- we hear every year about how gas will hit $5/gallon, yet it's still sitting at just over $3/gallon, with no indication that there will be any massive spike any time soon.

Secondly, even if gas does get to $5/gallon at some point, it's going to take a lot more than that to equal the increased cost of living intown. Even with the 35-mile commute that I do from Cherokee County, I only use about 70 gallons of gas/month (at 20 mpg), so a $2/gallon increase in gas costs equates to $140/month. The higher cost of intown real estate and property taxes far outweighs that cost.

I'd predict that it'd take gas hitting something crazy like $10/gallon before it was enough of an issue for many folks to reconsider their current housing choices.

When the economy slows gas prices decrease. Prices are still a function of supply and demand and when economies slow demand falls. The prices are also a function of the dollar as its a commodity traded in dollars. Thus, if the value of the dollar falls then prices rise. You also have speculation...but speculation works both ways in that it can drive up and drive down prices depending on how speculators feel about the future.

There is not going to be an "all of a sudden" decline in oil production, unless its the result of war or politics. The decline in production capacity will not change much over a 5 or ten year window. What will change, however, is demand as populations grow. It will be the inability to increase production capacity to keep up with rising demand that make prices rise.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb

I can't believe he didn't mention one very important factor in that article; white flight. Seeing as that's what drove a good deal of the flight to the suburbs/exurbs in the first place I'm not sure why he left it out. There is still a fairly large percentage of the white population which won't tolerate being in the minority and if that means moving out to East Bum#$%^ Egypt they're willing to do it, no matter what the cost. Given the way the media is drumming up panic over the "browning of America" I don't see the exurbs dying anytime soon.

I'm not sure though. It deserves addressing. White flight discussions often revolves looking at what types of people live where.

Even without white flight I think we would have still moved towards a suburban building style post-WWII.

The fact that our cities have grown so large and people still desire large houses/yards are important driving factors.

I guess I see us having a growing number of people and limited space to keep building large lot suburban housing driving exurban growth. Where as income disparity and social characteristics drive which people are in what neighborhoods, which in my mind aren't necessarily causal factors of the new homes being built.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Cameron H

OR the wife and I could drive five minutes or less to Applebee's -- sit down or take-out parking, depending on the babysitter situation. It may not work for you -- and I'm a fortysomething DINK who lives in Midtown -- but it's a lifestyle that's very appealing for the vast majority of the middle class. I don't see any radical changes on the near horizon.

Not all driving is equal. That's an important point that often gets lost in the debates about suburban vs. urban living.

What I'm getting at is the difference between hardcore getting-out-on-the-superslab-for-15-miles driving as opposed to a five minute jaunt to the local store. I can walk to several grocery stores from where we live and sometimes I do. But frankly it's a pain in the neck if you're getting more than a few items. It just makes sense to use my personal transport pod.

We love having the options. Almost everything is within easy walking distance -- scores of banks, services, movies, offices, galleries, bars, restaurants, churches, you name it. However, we can also cover all of that in very short auto trips that are typically just a mile or two. If you string them together that's extremely convenient. Our "intown" car gets less than 5,000 miles a year on it and the fuel and maintenance costs are very low. Typically our driving is withing 2-3 mile radius of home.

So sure, walkability is important. Do it nearly every day. We also love having great public transit and we use that frequently too. But driving is an important part of the mix. In a reasonably dense environment, urban driving is entirely different from long haul commuting or being forced to drive everywhere.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Some people on here keep stating that the desire to live in the suburbs is based on the fact that families need more space, a safer environment and better schools for their kids. This may be an overly simplistic way of thinking, but how in heck do people in other societies manage to raise kids in cities that are far more dense than Atlanta? They still managed to survive and thrive without the million square feet McMansions and yards. How did we humans pull off raising kids for millenia before the mini vans, SUVs and McMansions...?

[bdawk]

Originally Posted by SW30303

And some other things I cannot think of that come to mind.

That is my new favorite quote

[Cameron H]

I don't think anyone is arguing that American-style suburban living is a necessity, are they? Just that it's an affordable option and one that a lot of Americans seem to prefer when given a choice.

[Stars&StripesForever]

Originally Posted by JPD

I mentioned Candler Park to rebut your assertion that the suburbs is where you'll find safe neighborhoods with good schools. Candler Park is proof that you can get that intown, also. And as more young people move into less expensive intown neighborhoods (Kirkwood, Cabbagetown, etc.), you're going to see those neighborhoods become safer and have better schools, just as we saw happen with Candler Park.

BTW, "A quick search on realtor"...lol. Since I have been actively looking at properties in Candler Park recently, I know for a fact that there are significantly more than three single family homes in the area that are under $500k. I've been inside at least ten of them, all in the 300-350 range.

Anyway, it's not just "starter" types who are buying homes intown. It's also people like Pless, myself (closing on a house in three weeks), and many people I know who have owned (or still own) property in the suburbs.

Are young in-towners really having children? It seems that their liberal nature precludes them to think about having children. It's as if they don't desire them. With so many of this mindset, how do you figure that there will be enough children by this crowd to offset the gaggles of kids the riff-raff crowd spawns, even though there's fewer of them in concentrated areas surrounding by ever-gentrifying neighborhoods. A smaller population tends to have more kids in the local schools than the larger population. Odd how that happens. Those who do have children often put their children in private schools in those areas. Even the best schools in gentrification central, Grady High and Inman Middle, have more kids from poor homes than the wealthy in-towners who make up a majority of the population in the area.