How come Atlantans are NEVER happy or even satisfied? (Dallas: hotel, college)

[Psykomonkee]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

Simple: people not happy about progress in this city aren't Atlantans. Real Atlantans have civic pride, but it hard to tell over the screaming naysayers. Luckily, we're progressing, for the most part, without them!

Very interesting point... Hmmm... I think that may be the answer.
The problem is that the non-Atlantan/naysayers also have a vote. But, THAT point just may put things into perspective.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by Psykomonkee

Very interesting point... Hmmm... I think that may be the answer.
The problem is that the non-Atlantan/naysayers also have a vote. But, THAT point just may put things into perspective.

I didn't realize this myself until I went to other cities that you mentioned and some overseas. Most people I've met in other metro areas identify with the city, (especially overseas) while people in this balkanized metro identify with their county, exurb, or subdivision. Considering so many people move here from small towns and colleges in small towns, i doubt they'd have a city identity no matter where they settled down.

What Atlanta needs is more "city" people.

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

Simple: people not happy about progress in this city aren't Atlantans. Real Atlantans have civic pride, but it hard to tell over the screaming naysayers. Luckily, we're progressing, for the most part, without them!

Zanarkand, while you have a point, different folks define "progress" differently. Some folks don't consider building a new stadium as progress. Some folks don't consider expanding green space as progress. Some folks don't consider adding rail as progress and some folks don't consider expanding roads as progress. Progress is in the eye of the beholder and demographics matter - the young and the middle-aged may not have the same idea of what we need to be doing. That being said, if someone is, in their mind, taking the good of the city into mind in determine what it is that they believe is progress, well, they're as much an Atlantan as any of us.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

Zanarkand, while you have a point, different folks define "progress" differently. Some folks don't consider building a new stadium as progress. Some folks don't consider expanding green space as progress. Some folks don't consider adding rail as progress and some folks don't consider expanding roads as progress. Progress is in the eye of the beholder and demographics matter - the young and the middle-aged may not have the same idea of what we need to be doing. That being said, if someone is, in their mind, taking the good of the city into mind in determine what it is that they believe is progress, well, they're as much an Atlantan as any of us.

My concern is people that immediately decry any new project, simply because it's new or will cost any money. These kinds of "Atlantans" stand out easily because they don't bother to do their research on the projects or their real cost, e.g. people on ajc.com saying the new stadium is costing $1 billion in new taxes, instead of $250 million from an existing tax (used to fully fund the Georgia Dome) on people who stay in Atlanta hotels, an estimated 80% of which don't live in Atlanta.

These same people say the Beltine is dumb because it won't help their commute times from Forsyth

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

My concern is people that immediately decry any new project, simply because it's new or will cost any money. These kinds of "Atlantans" stand out easily because they don't bother to do their research on the projects or their real cost, e.g. people on ajc.com saying the new stadium is costing $1 billion in new taxes, instead of $250 million from an existing tax on people who stay in Atlanta hotels, an estimated 80% of which don't live in Atlanta.

Now, that's a good point. As for the tax, that is tax that belongs to the City of Atlanta and its citizens, even if 80% of it was paid by out-of-towners. That's $250 million that could be spent on something else in the city instead of a new stadium.

[Psykomonkee]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

Zanarkand, while you have a point, different folks define "progress" differently. Some folks don't consider building a new stadium as progress. Some folks don't consider expanding green space as progress. Some folks don't consider adding rail as progress and some folks don't consider expanding roads as progress. Progress is in the eye of the beholder and demographics matter - the young and the middle-aged may not have the same idea of what we need to be doing. That being said, if someone is, in their mind, taking the good of the city into mind in determine what it is that they believe is progress, well, they're as much an Atlantan as any of us.

Very good point, and well stated...

However, no matter which way you cut it or who defines it, progress is always defined as: ONWARD or forward MOVEMENT towards a GOAL or destination...

With that being said, there are some (and many) that feel that "it's not broke, so don't fix it." That simply is not progress. It's not "progress" to NOT build a stadium. Or it's not "progress" to NOT build more greenspace. It can't be progress if the before decision and after decision are the same. The must be a DECISION made, ACTION taken and RESULTS produced in order to ever call it any kind of progress, no matter what the progress is...

As far as "progress" being defined differently. True, it IS dedined differently. BUT that means for some people, (instead of greenspace) building more parking lots is progress. Or widening the streets instead of building streetcars is progress. Or raising private funding for a project to avoid any sort of public funding assistance is progress. What is NOT progress is simply voting No, just to avoid a building a metro line, then there is just no change. It isn't progress until there is an alternative solution to that metro line that is decided on, VOTED "YES" on and moved forward on...

Plain and simple, the "just vote 'NO' policy" is and can never be "progress"

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by Psykomonkee

Very good point, and well stated...

However, no matter which way you cut it or who defines it, progress is always defined as: ONWARD or forward MOVEMENT towards a GOAL or destination...

With that being said, there are some (and many) that feel that "it's not broke, so don't fix it." That simply is not progress. It's not "progress" to NOT build a stadium. Or it's not "progress" to NOT build more greenspace. It can't be progress if the before decision and after decision are the same. The must be a DECISION made, ACTION taken and RESULTS produced in order to ever call it any kind of progress, no matter what the progress is...

As far as "progress" being defined differently. True, it IS dedined differently. BUT that means for some people, (instead of greenspace) building more parking lots is progress. Or widening the streets instead of building streetcars is progress. Or raising private funding for a project to avoid any sort of public funding assistance is progress. What is NOT progress is simply voting No, just to avoid a building a metro line, then there is just no change. It isn't progress until there is an alternative solution to that metro line that is decided on, VOTED "YES" on and moved forward on...

Plain and simple, the "just vote 'NO' policy" is and can never be "progress"

Exactly, and it's noteworthy that much of the "just vote 'NO' policy" is coming from people that almost never come into the city. From AJC blog comments, an outsider would think Atlantans are anti-Atlanta, but it would be interesting to see how many of the 'NO' crowd even have an Atlanta or ITP address.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

Now, that's a good point. As for the tax, that is tax that belongs to the City of Atlanta and its citizens, even if 80% of it was paid by out-of-towners. That's $250 million that could be spent on something else in the city instead of a new stadium.

Only if it impacts tourism. Those same detractors said it should be spend on schools: more evidence that they haven't done their homework.

Besides the Beltline or Streetcar, I wonder what would be a better use of $250M than a facility that would bring and keep worldclass events here that we'd otherwise not be in the running for. As much as people cite Atlanta successfully hosting the Final Four and all of the college football events this year, they don't realize that this is all about winning future events, and Jerry Jones is champing at the bit to steal away the SEC Championship. With a new stadium, I think we could steal the ACC Championship away from Charlotte.

[Psykomonkee]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

Now, that's a good point. As for the tax, that is tax that belongs to the City of Atlanta and its citizens, even if 80% of it was paid by out-of-towners. That's $250 million that could be spent on something else in the city instead of a new stadium.

So, would they just rather not tax visitors to Atlanta (via hotel tax) than use the money generated from the tax for the stadium???

To me, it's a no-brainer... BUILD the stadium. Use it to develop Vine City and the areas around it as the GA Dome never did. Use it to bring the Superbowl back, and pursue the Sugarbowl and BCS Championship (being that the Superdome is getting old and it showed on the Superbowl stage).

Face it. Superbowl is never returning to the GA Dome...

And in my eyes, it's important for Atlanta to be a city that host top notch events. Superbowl caliber events.

We don't have a "Natural tourist revenue generating" city. Some do. Miami has its beaches, LA has its beaches. Orlando has Disney. NYC by way of being the biggest city. San Fran has the bay. Atlanta is not so lucky... Atlanta has to engineer its tourism, and I know some people hate tourism but the fact is a city is a business. And the point of every business is to generate revenue and grow. Revenue isn't generated from inside money. Revenue comes from outside money coming in... Tourism. Convention Goers. New Business. etc... For Atlanta to succeed, we need to constantly fight for this business, and for us, it means engineering our reasons to visit Atlanta.

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

Only if it impacts tourism. Those same detractors said it should be spend on schools: more evidence that they haven't done their homework.

Besides the Beltline or Streetcar, I wonder what would be a better use of $250M than a facility that would bring and keep worldclass events here that we'd otherwise not be in the running for. As much as people cite Atlanta successfully hosting the Final Four and all of the college football events this year, they don't realize that this is all about winning future events, and Jerry Jones is champing at the bit to steal away the SEC Championship. With a new stadium, I think we could steal the ACC Championship away from Charlotte.

Hey - not arguing that the stadium isn't the best use for the $250 mm. But, boy, I look around and see so many projects it could be spent on - downtown sidewalks, street car, parks, security... I think bringing world class events IS very important. But, at the end of the day, there is always only so much money to go around (now, my college age daughter thinks it grows on trees! But that's a different discussion...).