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The only difference between light rail and heavy rail is how many riders it can carry. It has nothing to do with speed.
LRT is still on the table in Cobb and will be included in costs estimates for comparisons, but heavy rail isn't on the table nor would heavy rail make sense on Cobb Pkwy. The heavy rail is on the W&A line that runs through Vinings, Cumberland, Smyrna then Marietta downtowns, and is still heavily used by freight. It'd have to be triple-tracked in some areas to even consider it, and there isn't much room to expand the ROW anywhere in these densely populated cores.
You made slight mistake of definition and a few cautiously incorrect assumptions off that.
When we discuss transit and the term heavy rail is used, it has nothing to do with freight rails. That is the FTA definition of a grade separated train with a 3rd rail electrical, which has to follow certain regulations with power running on ground level.
It has nothing to do with the freight rails. In Atlanta this can be confusing, because MARTA built the transit tracks next to freight right of ways in an effort to save right of way costs and lower the costs of bridging over more roads. They are separate rails, regulated separately, built differently, they can not use the same rails.
This also means it doesn't have to follow the freight rail tracks. The catch is they would have to build a combination of bridges, U sections into the ground, and tunnels to build it. For examples there is a bridge section along Dekalb Ave, a tunnel section in Decatur, and some U sections with road bridges near Lindbergh station.
Light rail, in contrast, has lighter rail tracks, narrower vehicles, and typically overhead power lines. There is more flexability to how it can be built. It can be anything from a fully grade separated system to a street car and any combination in between. Keeping the power overhead allows for street crossings and pedestrian crossings. This also allows them to run in the median of boulevards, which is key for Cobb pkwy. Typically they can't reach the same speeds as an HRT rail car can, however if designed right the top speed of a grade separated LRT train runs at the typical speed of an HRT train on a long section (but not the top speed). LRT generally can take tighter turns and steeper grade changes.
Running transit on freight tracks will be referred to as regional rail and/or commuter rail. There is a separate set of regulations for those tracks and how to run transit on it via the FRA. This is to prevent injuries with minor collisions with freight cars.
The only thing to be carefully with getting sold into BRT, is traditionally it under performs LRT in ridership when implemented. Whether it is perception only or there is a tangible reason for it, people and investment responds to LRT more so than BRT in North America. In South America some BRT lines have been wildly successful though.
It also has the ability, if grade separated, to potentially help speed up local buses.
984,293 - Fulton County
859,304 - Gwinnett County
717,190 - Cobb County
713,340 - DeKalb County
264,220 - Clayton County
These are the counties with over 1,500 people per square mile. They've always been the core counties. Clayton seems to have retained population, even with the challenges it has been going through over the last decade.
I don't think they were that far off. Neighborhoods that are now nearly fully like Pittsburgh, Rockdale, a good chunk of Mechanicsville and Peoplestown, Oakdale City were almost empty. I mean, just from the ones I listed, you're talking probably over 20,000 people. Now they are all pretty much full. But in 2009/2010, they had more empty houses than occupied. They can't count them, even if they know that being onoccupied is temporary.
I imagine many squatters weren't playing ball either and therefore didn't get counted, since many of them are generally un-trusting of officials, especially when they are illegally in a home. I can imagine census officials knocking repeatedly and just being ignored in some cases.
Keep in mind the overcount Saintmarks is referring to was in the 2009 estimates compared to the 2010 Census was about 120,000 people.
Atlanta Challenged and a few thousand were added, but it was still over 100,000 people difference.
After evaluated the areas this occurred in, it was clear the estimate completely neglected some new variables. In this context it was new to them, so this is likely a one-time historical blip.
I don't think Mchanicsville and Pittsburgh is 'full.' 20,000 in a few short years for those neighborhoods is unlikely. Not to mention the heavy about of speculative buying that has been going on.
I don't know... And I'm going to use Cobb for illustration here... There are downtowns in terms of heavy commercial development like Cobb Pkwy, and then "historic" downtowns/villages usually surrounded by historic residential (e.g. Vinings Village, Market Village, Marietta Square). The historic areas tend to have boutiques and unique restaurants. I think it makes perfect sense to have the light rail (BRT actually) down Cobb Pkwy, which is an endless strip of commercial and needs something to really encourage it to go vertical. And then all the downtown villages need are loops/spurs from this main line. I'm talking short-term, of course.
I know there's no bait-and-switch planned in Cobb County. I've talked with many leaders in Cobb, and they are being very practical about building only what's needed to remain competitive economically. There's no point in building heavy rail when even the light rail (or BRT run by natural gas) isn't likely to be fully utilized short-term. The only difference between light rail and heavy rail is how many riders it can carry. It has nothing to do with speed.
LRT is still on the table in Cobb and will be included in costs estimates for comparisons, but heavy rail isn't on the table nor would heavy rail make sense on Cobb Pkwy. The heavy rail is on the W&A line that runs through Vinings, Cumberland, Smyrna then Marietta downtowns, and is still heavily used by freight. It'd have to be triple-tracked in some areas to even consider it, and there isn't much room to expand the ROW anywhere in these densely populated cores.
The main feature is that Cobb Pkwy will have dedicated lanes for whichever they choose, and if it's BRT they can upgrade to LRT in the future just by laying down track.
Short-term, Cobb County leaders are willing to settle for at-grade Bus Rapid Transit service because BRT is all that they can possibly get funded at this point and BRT gets the ball rolling in building transit ridership for likely upgrades to passenger rail transit service later on.
But with separated-grade Light Rail Transit service being apart of the original high-capacity transit service plans for Cobb Parkway and with Cobb County leaders intensely-desiring to have a direct high-capacity passenger rail transit link between the Cumberland/Galleria area and the Atlanta Airport by way of Downtown Atlanta (so that the Cumberland/Galleria business district will be competitive with MARTA Heavy Rail Transit-connected business districts like Midtown, Buckhead and Perimeter Center), Heavy Rail Transit service very-much appears to be the long-term intention of Cobb leaders long-term plans to expand high-capacity transit service up Cobb Parkway to as far as Kennesaw.
The original plans to connect a grade-separated Cobb Parkway light rail transit line to the MARTA Red/Gold heavy rail transit line at the Arts Center MARTA Station never really truly made the most sense, especially considering that Cobb County and Cumberland/Galleria leaders have often openly expressed their desire to have a direct rail transit connection to the world-leading Atlanta Airport and the lucrative convention and tourism business in Downtown Atlanta, but that passengers coming from the Atlanta Airport and Downtown Atlanta would have to transfer from a heavy rail train to a light rail train to get to the Cumberland/Galleria area and Cobb County.
Making the proposed high-capacity transit line a grade-separated high-capacity transit line (first LRT, then BRT) so that trains or buses would not run through intersections at-grade or interact with traffic meant that the proposed LRT or BRT line can easily be upgraded to a HRT line if wanted...
Which with Cobb County and Cumberland/Galleria leaders repeatedly expressed intense desire to link the Cumberland/Galleria area with Downtown Atlanta and the Atlanta Airport, HRT service certainly appears to be a long-term goal of these Cobb Parkway transit expansion plans.
With the historic hostility and opposition to transit (particularly rail transit and MARTA) in traditionally-ultraconservative Cobb County, Cobb County leaders politically could never come out and openly say that they want MARTA or MARTA-style heavy rail transit in transit-averse Cobb County.
So Cobb County business and political leaders drew up proposals for grade-separated Light Rail Transit service along Cobb Parkway (proposals that have since been reduced to the current plan for at-grade Bus Rapid Transit service along Cobb Pkwy due to budgetary constraints).
But the early inclusion of a proposed grade-separated guideway down the middle of Cobb Parkway for LRT service and then BRT service in the original plans was a dead giveaway that Cobb business and political leaders have plans for much more than just Bus Rapid Transit or even Light Rail Transit service over the long term.
Even after being forced to cut the high-capacity transit proposal from grade-separated LRT and BRT service back to at-grade BRT service, Cobb business and political leaders have their eye on expanding Heavy Rail Transit service into the county over the long-term as a means of sparking an increased level of real estate and business investment in the county and helping to keep the Cumberland/Galleria area competitive with Perimeter Center, Buckhead and Midtown (and Downtown) over the long-term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by netdragon
LRT is still on the table in Cobb and will be included in costs estimates for comparisons, but heavy rail isn't on the table nor would heavy rail make sense on Cobb Pkwy. The heavy rail is on the W&A line that runs through Vinings, Cumberland, Smyrna then Marietta downtowns, and is still heavily used by freight. It'd have to be triple-tracked in some areas to even consider it, and there isn't much room to expand the ROW anywhere in these densely populated cores.
As I mentioned in a reply on another thread, Vinings village currently isn't too hot on the idea of being served by passenger rail transit service (though Vinings MIGHT be open to the idea of receiving passenger rail transit service if any future passenger rail transit line is tunneled underground along with the current freight rail line).
But the cities of Smyrna, Marietta, Kennesaw and Acworth are all continue to warm-up to the idea of being served by high-capacity passenger rail service (regional commuter rail, regional heavy rail and/or regional interurban rail service) on the Western & Atlantic Railroad ROW as a means of making their historic downtowns more economically competitive and more attractive to mixed-use real estate development over the long-term.
Light rail, in contrast, has lighter rail tracks, narrower vehicles, and typically overhead power lines. There is more flexability to how it can be built. It can be anything from a fully grade separated system to a street car and any combination in between. Keeping the power overhead allows for street crossings and pedestrian crossings. This also allows them to run in the median of boulevards, which is key for Cobb pkwy. Typically they can't reach the same speeds as an HRT rail car can, however if designed right the top speed of a grade separated LRT train runs at the typical speed of an HRT train on a long section (but not the top speed). LRT generally can take tighter turns and steeper grade changes.
this is exactly why i think light rail is the most suited for historic downtowns like norcross, marietta, roswell, etc. the I-85 corridor and the newer commercial districts that are more spread out will be the main source of transit for a lot of people, and since speed and capacity is more important than looks in such a case, heavy rail is clearly the winner along those corridors.
this is exactly why i think light rail is the most suited for historic downtowns like norcross, marietta, roswell, etc. the I-85 corridor and the newer commercial districts that are more spread out will be the main source of transit for a lot of people, and since speed and capacity is more important than looks in such a case, heavy rail is clearly the winner along those corridors.
Agreed. Out here the DART system looks MUCH more impressive than MARTA on a map. But ridership is nowhere near MARTA. Why? The slow as a bus speed of light rail. I have yet to ride it even though it extends from downtown Dallas up to Plano only 8 miles from my house. Even in traffic, it is not worth the hassel. When I lived in Marietta, would go out of my way to Dunwoody/Sandy Springs to take MARTA to any of numerous events in downtown. LRT is a waste of money for further flung areas. Either HRT or commuter rail. Why even bother with anything less?
Keep in mind the overcount Saintmarks is referring to was in the 2009 estimates compared to the 2010 Census was about 120,000 people.
This is exactly the timeline when the neighborhoods emptied out. I imagine the 2009 estimates were done right after the mortgage crisis. I didn't buy my investment property until 2010, but I read articles about renters being tossed out when their landlords foreclosed.
This was also about the time that the final projects were torn down.
I suspect that most of those people were still in Atlanta (the ones that didn't section 8 to East Point) but I imagine they had trouble finding out who lived where amongst all that chaos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
I don't think Mchanicsville and Pittsburgh is 'full.' 20,000 in a few short years for those neighborhoods is unlikely. Not to mention the heavy about of speculative buying that has been going on.
I was talking combined for the areas I listed. Obviously with only around 2,500 homes Pittsburgh alone isn't going to provide 20,000 in population. And yes, Pittsburgh isn't 100% full yet, but a lot closer to it than it was in 2009-2010.
But ridership is nowhere near MARTA. Why? The slow as a bus speed of light rail.
You live right there, so you should know it's not slow as bus. :-) And yes, I got out almost to Plano and back in no-time. Try that in a car during rush hour :-) The only slow part is right inside downtown, and even that's not too bad.
I suspect ridership is low because it's Texas, no offense to those living there. Texas is not known to be very progressive.
It probably doesn't help that some of the people riding on it at the time I went were homeless people that somehow had enough money to pay for a trip to keep warm on what was a very cold day.
This is exactly the timeline when the neighborhoods emptied out. I imagine the 2009 estimates were done right after the mortgage crisis. I didn't buy my investment property until 2010, but I read articles about renters being tossed out when their landlords foreclosed.
This was also about the time that the final projects were torn down.
I suspect that most of those people were still in Atlanta (the ones that didn't section 8 to East Point) but I imagine they had trouble finding out who lived where amongst all that chaos.
I was talking combined for the areas I listed. Obviously with only around 2,500 homes Pittsburgh alone isn't going to provide 20,000 in population. And yes, Pittsburgh isn't 100% full yet, but a lot closer to it than it was in 2009-2010.
I'm not sure what to say. 100,000+ people don't just go away in a few years and 20,000 come back in a few.
This is a much larger trend that was going on ever since the late 90s. The 2000 census just didn't capture it much, because it was just starting.
cwkimbro: Can you explain the trend more and what the solution is/was for census people in the future? I guess I just don't understand it well.
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