05-15-2015, 06:56 AM
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SO here's a question for those advocating the "you should run" position.
If you get stopped by the cops, do you, yourself, intend to run and let the police give chase? Why or why not?
05-15-2015, 07:12 AM
Location: Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
toll_booth
Sigh, you're just being defensive.
You're kinda full of yourself.
05-15-2015, 07:17 AM
Location: In your feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tryska
It's not justifying. It's actually acknowledging reality.
You make someone whose job requires a gun to control the peace more difficult, you are entirely liable to get shot. It is what it is. You can whine all day long that they shouldn't be shooting people, but that doesn't change the reality that they ARE shooting people, and justify shooting people because those people didn't follow orders. And the powers that be tend to be unsympathetic to the person not following orders when there is a gun pulled on them.
Ok I think we've found the source of the confusion. You appear to believe that police are allowed to shoot anyone who doesn't follow their orders, or anyone who runs away from them. There is
no justification under the law for a police officer to shoot someone who is fleeing. If you can't wrap your head around that this conversation is truly pointless.
05-15-2015, 07:19 AM
Location: In your feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tryska
SO here's a question for those advocating the "you should run" position.
If you get stopped by the cops, do you, yourself, intend to run and let the police give chase? Why or why not?
I'm honestly not sure if you're a troll, or just choosing not to read—we already established that this isn't about whether people should run, but whether they should be able to do so without being shot dead by a cop.
The cops are allowed to chase you and arrest you if they catch you. They aren't allowed to kill you for running away from them. No matter how much some people may wish it were so.
05-15-2015, 07:33 AM
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I think the miscommunication is a clash between idealism and reality.
Whether police should be allowed to shoot people or are justified in shooting people is a lofty ethics conversation
Best suited to the comfy confines of a classroom somewhere.
The reality and the crisis is that the police ARE shooting people in the here and now. How does one mitigate that risk? Occam's razor, and the advice that my doctor often gives me, is quite simple: " oh, it hurts when you do that? Stop doing it."
Understanding the laws in this Country and the number of jurisdictions involved, fighting about whether cops can do this that or the other is one that won't get sorted put for years, if not decades. It has zero affect on what is happening here and now.
However, building your case in the here and now, by complying and then proving that yes, police brutality exists no matter what you do, addresses both the immediate concern by lowering shooting incidents and the longer term ethics dilemma by providing ample time and data to prove the case.
05-15-2015, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tryska
I think the miscommunication is a clash between idealism and reality.
Whether police should be allowed to shoot people or are justified in shooting people is a lofty ethics conversation
Best suited to the comfy confines of a classroom somewhere.
The reality and the crisis is that the police ARE shooting people in the here and now. How does one mitigate that risk? Occam's razor, and the advice that my doctor often gives me, is quite simple: " oh, it hurts when you do that? Stop doing it."
Understanding the laws in this Country and the number of jurisdictions involved, fighting about whether cops can do this that or the other is one that won't get sorted put for years, if not decades. It has zero affect on what is happening here and now.
However, building your case in the here and now, by complying and then proving that yes, police brutality exists no matter what you do, addresses both the immediate concern by lowering shooting incidents and the longer term ethics dilemma by providing ample time and data to prove the case.
This case has already been proven. Eric Garner did not and Oscar Grant did not run. So what now? What do you propose now?
05-15-2015, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
bhammaster
This case has already been proven. Eric Garner did not and Oscar Grant did not run. So what now? What do you propose now?
Then you take it Baltimore PD and BART PD.
Y'all seem to think Jurisdiction doesn't matter. Per our Constitution, it very much matters.
You can't take one off cases and make the point for Federal anything. You can do it on the local jurisdiction level with each PD, but it is very difficult to make any sort of legislation on a State level or a Federal level, without getting into the sticky issues of jurisdiction and even state's rights.
Actually Keisha Lance Bottoms statement now make perfect sense. She knows it's all jurisdictional. That is nothing but politician speak for not doing anything, while talking like you mean for something to happen.
But all she did was turn the call of action on the kids getting shot, to get shot some more.
Again, you have to prove ACROSS the US, that even when young black men comply the majority of the time, they experience police brutality. Anecdotal one off cases isn't going to cut it. You need to prove it over and over again, with data, with evidence, for this to become something that nationally is part of police process.
There are attorneys that will help. There are politicians that will help. There are prosecutors and judges that will help. Hell there are cops that will help.
But you can't just take localized incidents and use that as your evidence. You have to PROVE it is a systemic issue, easily applying to black men everywhere, in every jurisdiction. (do I think that's possible? yeah. I don't deny that there is unfair treatment at all towards men of color - but again you need to prove it to the ruling elite - and that only happens when there is undeniable data).
And you can't prove that successfully if black men are behaving in such a way that they can be held culpable for the outcomes of their actions, because then, again, with the ruling elite "they brought it on themselves".
I'm not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.
I also see no one has answered the question as to whether they would run, if stopped.
I suspect, black or white, in this forum, that answer would be no, because in your heart, you know, whether it's right or wrong, you personally increase your risk of getting shot, black, white, male, female or indifferent. If that is the case for you, why would you advocate using young black men as cannon fodder to prove your do-nothing, resolve-nothing point?
05-15-2015, 08:55 AM
Location: Atlanta
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This thread has
"Appeal to Authority" fallacy written all over it.
And you are the skeptical of government "Libertarian", right? As in someone who supposedly subscribes to the notion of less-government intrusion into private lives "Libertarian"?
Wooooooow......
Stuff like this is why I put those who subscribe to the "Libertarian" ideology in the side-eye box everytime. Especially those who live in the deep-south.
This posting smells too much like "obey authority at all times". Regardless of whether or not that authority is in the right.
Regardless of the rationale of people who chose to run from the cops, it should never end in their deaths if they are not posing a threat of harm or bodily injury. At the end of the day, the ultimate responsibility rests with those who represent the power of the state.
And again, aren't you a "Libertarian"? The so-called freedom loving "Libertarian"?
I think you need a "Come to Jesus" moment with yourself to reconcile this obvious contradiction. If you are intellectually honest enough with yourself and the Libertarian ideology you claim to support, that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tikigod311
I really don't have to say any more. But I will...
This person is promoting a culture and idea that is toxic. An idea that gets people hurt, killed, or given a criminal record. What's next Ms. Bottoms? Are you going to come out with an anti-snitching platform?
The mayor needs to come out and scold her for this and re-engage the campaign to stop running from the cops. Too many (not most!) of South Atlanta's residents are stuck in a backwards, archaic culture and she just seems to want to perpetuate it. Defense of the criminal culture from the Ms. Bottoms is completely indefensible.
Atlanta review board to suspend its
Last edited by AcidSnake; 05-15-2015 at 09:29 AM ..
Reason: Because you gotta wonder about some folks sometimes...
05-15-2015, 09:01 AM
Location: In your feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tryska
I think the miscommunication is a clash between idealism and reality.
Whether police should be allowed to shoot people or are justified in shooting people is a lofty ethics conversation
Best suited to the comfy confines of a classroom somewhere.
Ahhhahaha NO it is not a lofty ethics conversation it is a simple matter of law that has been decided by the United States Supreme Court.
Tennessee v. Garner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maybe you didn't know about this though? This is what Councilwoman Bottoms is referring to when she mentioned a right to run.
I'm done
05-15-2015, 09:06 AM
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Note the escape clause in bold. This is why so many cases do not wind up with the Cop being at fault. This is what needs to be resolved. And this is why I keep saying what I say, about not fleeing and collecting data, over and over and over again.
You can tilt and windmills if you want to, but don't expect different results.
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People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)