Stats that show the Atlanta Streetcar was a complete and utter failure of epic proportion (Monroe: young professionals, airport)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MikeHonchoATL

16x a small number is still a small number.

14,000 boardings for how many hundreds of millions of dollars?

You also mentioned that they only projected 900 boardings per day on this route. That is a blatant lie. They touted between 2,100 and 2,500 rides per day in their pre-opening projections. If they adjusted it lower, it was only after they saw poor ridership stats.

I am not lying. You can go look up the number if you want, it's right there in the document. The projected no-expansion ridership is 900 boardings a day.

As I said, the 2,000+ daily riders were initial projections. As has been said here plenty of times, those were expected to go down without expansion and with the introduction of a fare. That's why the streetcar was doing better than projected for a while, when the no-fare period was extended. It overlapped with when they expected a drop in ridership from the fare, which came later on.

The original estimates for the full 11.3 mile, Phase 1 build out was $661 Million, plus the initial $98 Million from the starter loop. At 1172 riders per mile, that would put Phase 1 just above DART in Dallas for riders per mile. We would have higher riders per mile than Baltimore, New Orleans, Norfolk, Pittsburgh, and other cities.

With further expansion, continued densification, and further improvements to our overall network, that number will likely only get better.


I look forward to seeing the final Environmental Impact Statements from the BeltLine for the buildout of Phase 1, for more up to date ridership projections.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MikeHonchoATL

Are you really arguing that Atlanta needed to spend $100 million to make sure this technology works?

How else would you have done it, other than not build it at all? They could have started smaller, but that would be even more useless for everyday riders, and have even worse ridership. They could have started bigger, but that would have run into the same problems, just on a larger scale, and required more money that wasn't readily available.

You really think $100 million spent for 900 (and rapidly decreasing) rides a day is a good 'test?'

I do. We learned quite a bit, and know how to move forward. I don't understand how you can't seem to grasp that concept.

Anyone with half a brain knew from the beginning that this route was flawed and destined to fail. You didn't need to flush $100 million on test that was destined to fail.

Anyone with half a brain can see the forest for the trees. They can see past this initial loop, and see how useful it will be to move forward.

They can also see that we didn't flush $98 Million, considering we have 4 vehicles, a maintenance facility that can handle 6 vehicles, connection to MARTA, connections between major tourist and employment locations, and track that is just waiting to be built to the Eastside and Westside BeltLine.

They failed so badly with their projections and initial implementation, what makes you you think these same people are capable of adjusting and making further investment successful? These people were sooooo incredibly wrong the first time, they have done nothing to prove they can do anything correctly. They haven't fixed anything. Ridership is dropping like a rock and nothing is changing.

Point of fact: they have fixed things. The city council has laid out design directives for new lines, MARTA is likely going to take over the system, the management issues seem to have been fixed and stuck, and the city was already in the process of fixing the safety issues when GDoT was threatening to shut it down.

Ridership is dropping to projected levels, and things are changing now that funding is secured for expanding the system. It's attitudes like yours that actually prevent progress and fixes and expansions to take place.

"We need more money to make the already wasted money not quite such a horrific waste."

Good policy there, sport.

It's called the real world. Nothing, ever, is 100% perfect. Nothing, ever, goes 100% according to plan. This is as true for government as it is for the private sector, and when you're talking about a project on the scale of the proposed streetcar and light-rail network, then yes, this money, that has not actually been wasted, is but a drop in the bucket to the overall system.

At least the citizens of Atlanta seem to understand that 3 to 1, and so we move forward to building the network that will help Atlanta endure its incredible, not so distant in the future, growth.

[MikeHonchoATL]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

How else would you have done it, other than not build it at all? They could have started smaller, but that would be even more useless for everyday riders, and have even worse ridership. They could have started bigger, but that would have run into the same problems, just on a larger scale, and required more money that wasn't readily available.

It is a streetcar, not a mission to Mars. You aren't talking about some unproven technology that requires a proof of concept implementation. There was no need to 'test it out.' It was a proven technology. A well thought out plan could've been successful from the start, but this clearly was neither.

I do. We learned quite a bit, and know how to move forward. I don't understand how you can't seem to grasp that concept.

Again, glad you learned something. It came at the cost of $100 million when there was no need to go through the growing pains of a bad plan. The route is awful and will continue to be a problem running at 6mph without its own ROW. This problem will not go away. Is that a lesson learned? I provided that insight for free prior to this project. You didn't need to waste $100 million to learn that.

They can also see that we didn't flush $98 Million, considering we have 4 vehicles, a maintenance facility that can handle 6 vehicles, connection to MARTA, connections between major tourist and employment locations, and track that is just waiting to be built to the Eastside and Westside BeltLine.

You have fixed infrastructure cost that is only returning $32 in fares per hour. Does that even pay the wages and benefits of one driver? You also have a track that is limited to 6mph.

Point of fact: they have fixed things. The city council has laid out design directives for new lines, MARTA is likely going to take over the system, the management issues seem to have been fixed and stuck, and the city was already in the process of fixing the safety issues when GDoT was threatening to shut it down.

Ridership is dropping to projected levels, and things are changing now that funding is secured for expanding the system. It's attitudes like yours that actually prevent progress and fixes and expansions to take place.

What have they fixed? They actually hired some people to run the safety program? Oh wow! A new day is upon us. Rejoice! The system is still slow. It is still expensive. It still doesn't provide a viable transportation option.

The system was supposed to provide between 2,100 and 2,500 rides a day. It is only providing 900 a day. That is an abject failure. Safety might be better, but that was only one of many concerns about this boondoggle.

It's called the real world. Nothing, ever, is 100% perfect. Nothing, ever, goes 100% according to plan. This is as true for government as it is for the private sector, and when you're talking about a project on the scale of the proposed streetcar and light-rail network, then yes, this money, that has not actually been wasted, is but a drop in the bucket to the overall system.

In the real world, not world of free government money, there are consequences for poor decisions and awful planning. Seriously. $100 million was spent to get 900 rides a day. That is not a simple "Oopsie, I learned a valuable lesson. I'll try better next time" Anyone with an ounce of foresight saw that this was a disaster and doomed from the start. Your point of view of 'I love the choo choo train' is obviously clouding your judgement. How are the "experts" so wrong? I guess I'm just more expert than the experts in this industry.

[MattCW]

I have to go with Mike on the whole testing it out angle. Streetcars are nothing new, plenty of other cities have them, Atlanta is nothing special.

But I'll point out that the maximum speed isn't 6mph, that's the average speed, which long ago I calculated to be higher than the buses over the same route. The maximum speed is 35mph.

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by memph

My question is, while that larger system would have utility to many people, would this larger system have non-essential parts and is this one of them? Or maybe another way to look at it - is this the most essential part of the system and if not why wasn't the most essential part the first to be built?

And frankly, even if that larger system gets a lot of users, I think it would need A LOT of users to be worth it.

This would be a link to downtown for the system, so I would consider it essential. The reason this segment was built first is it was the only segment that could qualify for federal funds at the time.

There's a lot to the streetcar system beyond transporting current residents. A big aspect (the biggest?) of developing the streetcar system is to help guide future development. Rather than be reactionary and deal with a problem once it has occurred, the city and citizens have the foresight to plan for the future. Future residents and versions of ourselves will be the primary beneficiaries of this investment.

If you just want to be stuck in yesterday and today, I get how this doesn't make sense. But for the love of God, Atlanta needs to plan for the future. Lack of planning is just about everyone's primary complaint about Atlanta. We are doing a huge favor for the future citizens of our fine city.

[MikeHonchoATL]

Originally Posted by MattCW

I have to go with Mike on the whole testing it out angle. Streetcars are nothing new, plenty of other cities have them, Atlanta is nothing special.

But I'll point out that the maximum speed isn't 6mph, that's the average speed, which long ago I calculated to be higher than the buses over the same route. The maximum speed is 35mph.

No one said it was the maximum. That is the average speed which is much more important than the maximum. What is the reality of how fast this thing gets from point A to point B. It gets there the same speed as a slow jog.

[tikigod311]

Yeah but I can get sweaty jogging. I'm glad we invested millions in preventing me from breaking a sweat. Gotta save my energy for all this typing.

[MikeHonchoATL]

Originally Posted by tikigod311

Yeah but I can get sweaty jogging. I'm glad we invested millions in preventing me from breaking a sweat. Gotta save my energy for all this typing.

I'll take credit for any development in a 3 mile radius the includes a shower.

My plan to get you jogging is spurring economic development.

This is how the game is played, right?

[JPD]

Originally Posted by MikeHonchoATL

What is the reality of how fast this thing gets from point A to point B. It gets there the same speed as a slow jog.

This is false. I'm a very fast walker, and I walk along the Streetcar route often. It leaves me in the dust, even when it catches every red light.

I agree the Streetcar kinda sucks and has been implemented extremely poorly, but let's not make $h!+ up to bolster our arguments.

[MikeHonchoATL]

Originally Posted by JPD

This is false. I'm a very fast walker, and I walk along the Streetcar route often. It leaves me in the dust, even when it catches every red light.

I agree the Streetcar kinda sucks and has been implemented extremely poorly, but let's not make $h!+ up to bolster our arguments.

Atlanta Streetcar | Desire or Disaster? | 11alive.com

We timed the loop at 27 minutes.

Do the math on that and tell me what the average speed works out to, Champ.