Why suburbia sucks (Roswell, Marietta, Decatur: metro area, buildings, island)

[kasuga888]

Originally Posted by evannole

Hmm. I guess that my neighbors and I must be passing through some kind of Doctor Who-style teleport device when we leave our homes on foot and a few minutes later find ourselves on the vibrant, bustling, highly walkable Marietta Square.

Some of these same teleport devices must be present in Downtown Decatur and Roswell, too.

Or, maybe - just maybe - you need to get out and explore the metro area a bit more.

You name 2 or 3, how many little towns that dot the metro atlanta area? Also, the ratio of 2-5 blocks is not exactly exciting... for the amt of plain vanilla sprawl.

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by evannole

Hmm. I guess that my neighbors and I must be passing through some kind of Doctor Who-style teleport device when we leave our homes on foot and a few minutes later find ourselves on the vibrant, bustling, highly walkable Marietta Square.

Some of these same teleport devices must be present in Downtown Decatur and Roswell, too.

Or, maybe - just maybe - you need to get out and explore the metro area a bit more.

We can even add in Duluth, Tucker and a scad of others to the ever growing list. They may not be "there" yet, but they are, seemingly, on their way.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by sstsunami55

Look, the point is, to each their own. You shouldn't assume that most people prefer to live a certain way when you don't know them. There isn't much to discuss.

Oooooohhh...you about to get trounced! There are a couple of people on this board who thinks that everyone must want to live a highly-dense, in-town, condo/apartment lifestyle, and that you will be happier living like that. If you want a yard or quiet streets, there must be something wrong with you.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

Oooooohhh...you about to get trounced! There are a couple of people on this board who thinks that everyone must want to live a highly-dense, in-town, condo/apartment lifestyle, and that you will be happier living like that. If you want a yard or quiet streets, there must be something wrong with you.

Yes, we will be marching out the armies to force you into highrises soon.


All that is needed is a fair choice. We shouldn't be forcing anybody into either lifestyle.

No need for armies, but we should stop turning our quiet city streets into free high-speed car sewers for suburban commuters with our local city tax dollars.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Yes, we will be marching out the armies to force you into highrises soon.


All that is needed is a fair choice. We shouldn't be forcing anybody into either lifestyle.

No need for armies, but we should stop turning our quiet city streets into free high-speed car sewers for suburban commuters with our local city tax dollars.

I didn't use the words force, coerce, compel, demand, order, pressure, require, or order. I said that some people, yourself at the top of that list, have said that the rest of us should want to live like that, and that if we don't, we are wrong. That, if we did choose that life, we would be happier.

I don't know what quiet city streets turning into "car sewers" you are referring to, but most suburban neighborhoods have nice, quiet streets within them.

And those suburban commuters pay taxes just like you do. And those suburban commuters are likely funding the transit that they don't use. And last time I heard, people riding bikes and walking don't add any tax revenue like those paying fuel taxes, so that argument is kind of out of the window.

I'm curious though, and I've never received a solid answer. What fair choice do you not have? If I wanted to move into a downtown condo tomorrow, I could. If I wanted to give up my car and restrict myself to using transit, I could. If I wanted to bike or walk everywhere, I could. You do have those choices. If you think that you will only ever pay taxes towards exactly what you use, and nothing else, you might as well get over that. That will never, ever happen. We just voted to pay more towards transit...what else do you want.

Oh, and BTW...I blame Trump's victory on parking minimums.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

I didn't use the words force, coerce, compel, demand, order, pressure, require, or order. I said that some people, yourself at the top of that list, have said that the rest of us should want to live like that, and that if we don't, we are wrong. That, if we did choose that life, we would be happier.

I don't know what quiet city streets turning into "car sewers" you are referring to, but most suburban neighborhoods have nice, quiet streets within them.

And those suburban commuters pay taxes just like you do. And those suburban commuters are likely funding the transit that they don't use. And last time I heard, people riding bikes and walking don't add any tax revenue like those paying fuel taxes, so that argument is kind of out of the window.

I'm curious though, and I've never received a solid answer. What fair choice do you not have? If I wanted to move into a downtown condo tomorrow, I could. If I wanted to give up my car and restrict myself to using transit, I could. If I wanted to bike or walk everywhere, I could. You do have those choices. If you think that you will only ever pay taxes towards exactly what you use, and nothing else, you might as well get over that. That will never, ever happen. We just voted to pay more towards transit...what else do you want.

Oh, and BTW...I blame Trump's victory on parking minimums.

Most peds and cyclists own cars so they pay fuel taxes, but then again most peds/cyclists use non-state maintained streets, which are funded by property taxes.

Quiet city streets are being turned into car sewers by apps like Waze, where commuters are rerouted onto local, residential streets and are paying more attention to the app, than obstacles and are speeding thru trying to make up time.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

I didn't use the words force, coerce, compel, demand, order, pressure, require, or order. I said that some people, yourself at the top of that list, have said that the rest of us should want to live like that, and that if we don't, we are wrong. That, if we did choose that life, we would be happier.

No, I don't think everyone wants to live a more urban lifestyle. But yes, I do think most people would be happier if they did. But that is up to them. No one is being forced.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

I don't know what quiet city streets turning into "car sewers" you are referring to, but most suburban neighborhoods have nice, quiet streets within them.

I am referring to formerly quiet city streets being turned into car sewers. Luckily that is something we are fixing with road diets and complete street programs.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

And those suburban commuters pay taxes just like you do. And those suburban commuters are likely funding the transit that they don't use. And last time I heard, people riding bikes and walking don't add any tax revenue like those paying fuel taxes, so that argument is kind of out of the window.

Sure those suburban car commuters pay taxes, just very little if any to the City of Atlanta. I, as a city resident, pay many times more city taxes towards our streets than a suburbanite even though the suburbanite probably puts a lot more wear / miles on the city streets than me.

I promise you almost all those bikers you see on city streets are paying much more to maintain those streets that someone driving in from out of town even though their wear is minimal. Remember, city streets are mostly funded by property taxes, and very few bikers are riding in from the suburbs.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

I'm curious though, and I've never received a solid answer. What fair choice do you not have? If I wanted to move into a downtown condo tomorrow, I could. If I wanted to give up my car and restrict myself to using transit, I could. If I wanted to bike or walk everywhere, I could. You do have those choices. If you think that you will only ever pay taxes towards exactly what you use, and nothing else, you might as well get over that. That will never, ever happen. We just voted to pay more towards transit...what else do you want.

Having a choice does not mean it is a fair choice. Tell me, if you think the choice is fair, why do you think most other places in the world have much higher ratios of urban living than we do in metro Atlanta and the US regardless of wealth, population, education, or a hundred other differences? Do you really think there is some human characteristic that magically changes when they cross the boarder to switch their preferences?

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

\Having a choice does not mean it is a fair choice. Tell me, if you think the choice is fair, why do you think most other places in the world have much higher ratios of urban living than we do in metro Atlanta and the US regardless of wealth, population, education, or a hundred other differences? Do you really think there is some human characteristic that magically changes when they cross the boarder to switch their preferences?

This doesn't answer any question whatsoever. What is not fair? Just because high-density places are not being built to your liking? That because Atlanta developed heavily during the height of the automobile that it tends to be developed more around car infrastructure? There is absolutely nothing stopping high density development if someone wants to develop it.

And yes. I do believe people in the south have different preferences. I like transit, but I do not want to live an urban, no-car, condo, stop-at-the-market-every-day, type lifestyle. At all. If I did, I'd live somewhere with that lifestyle. The center of my industry is NYC. I do not live in NYC. I chose Atlanta because it does offer what I am looking for.

[Beardo]

Suburbia only really sucks if you don't have a car. Otherwise it's pros and cons.

[memph]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

This doesn't answer any question whatsoever. What is not fair? Just because high-density places are not being built to your liking? That because Atlanta developed heavily during the height of the automobile that it tends to be developed more around car infrastructure? There is absolutely nothing stopping high density development if someone wants to develop it.

Zoning? Parking requirements? Whether you disagree with those is irrelevant, you can't deny that it does impact whether or not high density gets built. You might even believe that if zoning and parking requirements were removed, there would be little change in the amount of high density urban development that gets built, but as long as most places have those, you can't definitively say nothing is stopping high density development.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

And yes. I do believe people in the south have different preferences. I like transit, but I do not want to live an urban, no-car, condo, stop-at-the-market-every-day, type lifestyle. At all. If I did, I'd live somewhere with that lifestyle. The center of my industry is NYC. I do not live in NYC. I chose Atlanta because it does offer what I am looking for.

You're right, people in southern cities do prefer auto-oriented neighbourhoods in greater numbers than people in the northeast.

In Boston, about 40 percent of respondents said they preferred denser, more pedestrian-friendly neighborhoods, while in Atlanta, just under 30 percent of respondents did so. (Auto-oriented neighborhoods were preferred by 29 percent of people in Boston and 41 percent of people in Atlanta, with remaining respondents neutral.)

And how well did these preferences match actual behavior? Well, in Boston—where neighborhoods in the three most urban categories made up over half of all housing—83 percent of people with strong preferences for urban neighborhoods lived in one of these three urban zones. In Atlanta—where the same top three urban categories make up barely over 10 percent of all housing—just 48 percent of people with strong preferences for urban neighborhoods lived in an urban zone.

The myth of revealed preference for the suburbs

But there's still an important minority of people in Atlanta that prefer walkable, urban neighbourhoods and when you consider how little of Atlanta is built like that (10% seems rather generous...), it does sound like there is an undersupply.