MARTA unveils its dream project list for November Referendum (Atlanta: work, drive)

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by bu2

What about residents for which transit is not a reasonable option (80-90% of the population)? Don't they benefit from getting outsiders off the streets?

Not in the long run. Those roads will just fill back up with other drivers due to induced demand.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by bu2

Good article. I also question parts of it. The table is counting jobs in downtown that are already served by MARTA heavy rail. Giving the light rail projects that run near existing MARTA full credit for the population and jobs overstates their value.

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure your statement holds when you consider that, for the most part, the routes are still going to unique places that aren't covered by the existing MARTA stations, while serving unique corridors.

The primary exception would be downtown / capital line, but even that is either off-set enough, in dense enough area, or filling in a gap of service, that it still makes sense as a component of other lines, as it's planned to be. I would point out that the routing they show for the Irwin-AUC line, with it along MLK, is still not settled, and I would be surprised if it were there. More likely, it will be nearly a half-mile south along Fair.

Given that, you should also remember that the jobs and residences represent a potential pool of not just riders, but rides as well. Just because someone takes the train from North Ave to 5-Points for work, doesn't exclude the possibility of them then riding the downtown line up along Lucky for evening drinks, and then taking the Crosstown Midtown line home. One person, three trips, three lines.

I also disagree with the "purpose." The purpose is to help the people of Atlanta. If that means you build the I-20W project and get outsiders off the streets, you have helped the people of Atlanta. And if you make it easier for jobs to be in Atlanta (by providing easier access to outsiders), you have helped the people of Atlanta. That one guy quoted thinks like Lee from Cobb County who wanted to wall off Cobb County and do their own thing as if there were a bunch of different metro areas in the MSA instead of an interconnected one.

Well, it's about prioritizing limited funds, yeah? How much opportunity does I-20 West represent for getting trips transferred to transit? It would be a terminus station, and a park-n-ride. It would be a source of trips, but other than those returning to their cars, and those using if for the bus transfers as H.E. Holmes has now, how much of a destination would it be?

How, then, does that compare to similar expenses of light rail / streetcar lines, or even infill stations? Is the political gesture of staging heavy rail closer to Cobb's border worth it as a leverage point over alternative, more internal changes?

That's not to say it shouldn't be built, but I question trying to prioritizing it over other projects.

Personally, I think it should be just about the bottom list.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Well, it's about prioritizing limited funds, yeah? How much opportunity does I-20 West represent for getting trips transferred to transit? It would be a terminus station, and a park-n-ride. It would be a source of trips, but other than those returning to their cars, and those using if for the bus transfers as H.E. Holmes has now, how much of a destination would it be?

How, then, does that compare to similar expenses of light rail / streetcar lines, or even infill stations? Is the political gesture of staging heavy rail closer to Cobb's border worth it as a leverage point over alternative, more internal changes?

That's not to say it shouldn't be built, but I question trying to prioritizing it over other projects.

Personally, I think it should be just about the bottom list.

Very good points. Doubt there are many drivers that aren't already going to HE Homes that would switch just because a new station is built a mile closer.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Very good points. Doubt there are many drivers that aren't already going to HE Homes that would switch just because a new station is built a mile closer.

One more consideration, just to add credence to the other side, is what if the new station has TOD from the beginning? How much value does that add?

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

One more consideration, just to add credence to the other side, is what if the new station has TOD from the beginning? How much value does that add?

Very true. But that would then be shifting the focus of building the station back towards serving CoA residents / jobs in walking distance rather than hoping to attract drivers from afar.

If they are able to attack additional drivers in out there car that is a big win, but you will not get many. If they have a free highway running along right next to the transit line people will keep driving it. They focus should be on connecting walkable / dense nodes.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Very true. But that would then be shifting the focus of building the station back towards serving CoA residents / jobs in walking distance rather than hoping to attract drivers from afar.

If they are able to attack additional drivers in out there car that is a big win, but you will not get many. If they have a free highway running along right next to the transit line people will keep driving it. They focus should be on connecting walkable / dense nodes.

I was thinking more along the lines of building new, & seeding additional, transit oriented residences and commercial space, directly connected to the rest of the city's system.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

I was thinking more along the lines of building new, & seeding additional, transit oriented residences and commercial space, directly connected to the rest of the city's system.

Those new residences / commercial space at the TOD next to the new station would still be CoA jobs / residents being served.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Those new residences / commercial space at the TOD next to the new station would still be CoA jobs / residents being served.

Right. So, how much value does that, plus all the other considerations, give the I-20 West extension vs. the equivalent amount of expansion funding for light rail / streetcar?

I have no idea how to measure that off the top of my head, but my gut tells me that the money would be better spent on transit in the city's core, rather than on its periphery, TOD or not.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure your statement holds when you consider that, for the most part, the routes are still going to unique places that aren't covered by the existing MARTA stations, while serving unique corridors.

The primary exception would be downtown / capital line, but even that is either off-set enough, in dense enough area, or filling in a gap of service, that it still makes sense as a component of other lines, as it's planned to be. I would point out that the routing they show for the Irwin-AUC line, with it along MLK, is still not settled, and I would be surprised if it were there. More likely, it will be nearly a half-mile south along Fair.

Given that, you should also remember that the jobs and residences represent a potential pool of not just riders, but rides as well. Just because someone takes the train from North Ave to 5-Points for work, doesn't exclude the possibility of them then riding the downtown line up along Lucky for evening drinks, and then taking the Crosstown Midtown line home. One person, three trips, three lines.



Well, it's about prioritizing limited funds, yeah? How much opportunity does I-20 West represent for getting trips transferred to transit? It would be a terminus station, and a park-n-ride. It would be a source of trips, but other than those returning to their cars, and those using if for the bus transfers as H.E. Holmes has now, how much of a destination would it be?

How, then, does that compare to similar expenses of light rail / streetcar lines, or even infill stations? Is the political gesture of staging heavy rail closer to Cobb's border worth it as a leverage point over alternative, more internal changes?

That's not to say it shouldn't be built, but I question trying to prioritizing it over other projects.

Personally, I think it should be just about the bottom list.

I don't think it should be put at the bottom of the list simply because many of its riders would be out of the service area. It should be prioritized based on its relative value, which may be at the bottom of the list.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Very true. But that would then be shifting the focus of building the station back towards serving CoA residents / jobs in walking distance rather than hoping to attract drivers from afar.

If they are able to attack additional drivers in out there car that is a big win, but you will not get many. If they have a free highway running along right next to the transit line people will keep driving it. They focus should be on connecting walkable / dense nodes.

MARTA is really not usable currently to the west and south metro. In the south it terminates at the airport. There just is not good access from the south. To the west, by the time you get to HE Holmes, you will just drive into downtown. A stop outside 285 would generate additional riders.

Not saying that would make it a top priority, but it should be a long term priority. Really the west line should at least go to Charlie Brown Airport. That area is primed for redevelopment and already has a decent job base.