MARTA unveils its dream project list for November Referendum (Atlanta: best, flood)

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Lindbergh has always been the main NE station on the beltline proposal. All of the maps (such as what Arjay shows above) show all the trains as having to go to Lindbergh as part of their route. So they'll be stopping at Lindbergh regardless. Something so close to an existing HRT station should absolutely be handled by more local transit rather than tying up the higher speed service. HRT is NOT a glorified bus line, and should never be treated as such!

Yep, the Lindbergh connection has been critical from the get-go.

From the Subarea 7 master plan:

"Key Recommendations:

• Prime among these strategies will be the
implementation of BeltLine transit. While technical
and financial hurdles exist, transit will be built in this
corridor. BetlLine transit will provide a valuable link
between the major employment and residential
center of the Piedmont Hospital/Peachtree Road
area and MARTA, via the Lindbergh Station, making
this area one of the most transit accessible places
in the region. Several transit alignment options
are proposed in the Armour-Ottley Industrial area
to potentially maximize transit accessibility. These
options will be evaluated further as part of the
transit EIS process currently underway."

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MattCW

See below.

Lindbergh has always been the main NE station on the beltline proposal. All of the maps (such as what Arjay shows above) show all the trains as having to go to Lindbergh as part of their route. So they'll be stopping at Lindbergh regardless. Something so close to an existing HRT station should absolutely be handled by more local transit rather than tying up the higher speed service. HRT is NOT a glorified bus line, and should never be treated as such!

The map that Arjay showed was a collection of POTENTIAL routing. Even now, a lot of those have been whittled down, especially on the Eastside and Westside routings. The Linbergh area is no exception, and MARTA's own map shows the light rail service not stretching north.

HRT isn't a glorified bus service, but neither is it meant for ONLY high-speed, limited service. Lots of heavy rail systems have plenty more stations within the kinds of distances as Armor would add to the Lenox to South Downtown stretch of track.

If you want low-stop, higher speed service, then we need to be investing in rapid, frequent commuter rail. Given the potential density of the Armor area, and the potential to serve as a major transit hub for the area, a heavy rail station isn't an absurd proposal. In fact, according to MARTA's own 2007 study of potential infill stations, Armor was one of the top four rated stations.

The four stations that do the best in cost/benefit also do well in the other categories of the Comparative Analysis. For example, the Armour Station has both significant development potential but perhaps more importantly would be an incredibly strategic regional connection for MARTA. It would connect MARTA rail with existing transportation like regional bus, Amtrak and I-85, as well as anticipated transit connections like the Beltline, Emory/Clifton Corridor, commuter rail to Athens and Gainesville. In addition to TOD and transit connections, Armour has significant partnering opportunities with other agencies (like Amtrak, GDOT, GRTA) to help bear the cost of station construction.

That is, of course, subject to change, but I have yet to see a cost / benefit analysis of moving routing up to Lindbergh rather than build in an Infill station.

[primaltech]

I just drew up a little visual of Armour:



I even threw in a new north/south road that I believe is needed for the neighborhood, that would have good sidewalks and bike lanes on it as well, so would serve as Beltline access point for Peachtree Hills neighborhood.

This station is needed, IMO.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

The map that Arjay showed was a collection of POTENTIAL routing. Even now, a lot of those have been whittled down, especially on the Eastside and Westside routings. The Linbergh area is no exception, and MARTA's own map shows the light rail service not stretching north.

***

That is, of course, subject to change, but I have yet to see a cost / benefit analysis of moving routing up to Lindbergh rather than build in an Infill station.

Wonder when they plan on updating those of us who are footing the bill for this thing and will have it running through our backyards?

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Wonder when they plan on updating those of us who are footing the bill for this thing and will have it running through our backyards?

Mostly when they have a solid answer. The Environmental Impact Studies aren't done yet, which come before the selection of the Local Preferred Alternative, which will then solidify the final routes.

You speak as if they need a final, detailed plan before any money is actually allocated to them, and that's not even how this works in an industry setting. There's funding all the way up through various levels of reviews until either the project is canceled or concluded. We're getting closer to having the routes finished, but until then what do you expect?

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by MattCW

He's right, here. Mechanicsville I can see, Boone is somewhat on the border. But Armour? Total waste of a formerly good long 70mph stretch.

Originally Posted by primaltech

Armour would be on the Beltline, so eventually it would potentially get a lot of riders walking/biking/taking light rail transit from Piedmont Heights and Morningside, and maybe some other neighborhoods around it. Armour also has a lot of real estate room to grow and develop, and re-develop. Also, there's only one road going in and out of that area, so it needs something.

I would think all that justifies the slight delay for train riders passing by it. I mean, a lot of riders coming from the north Red/Gold lines would likely someday use the station just for Beltline access.

Originally Posted by MattCW

Lindbergh is on the beltline, and it's already served. Armour can be served by LRT only without slowing down the HRT. If your argument is riders from the north, then what's the issue with just having them transfer at Lindbergh?

In theory I like the idea of an infill at Armour. But realistically I think it would be better to just run the LRT Beltline and the Clifton corridor up to Lindbergh.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Atlanta and NYC. Also lived in Washington DC but I didn't take rail regularly.

But what does that have to do with our need to flood the zone with buses? I'm just not following your argument.

Good thing the first project implemented by the sales tax increase will be bus frequency improvements.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

So, given that the topic at hand is the November referendum, and that the need for improved bus service REALLY should be considered IN ADDITION to the need for high-capacity transit as proposed by this referendum, and that this referendum includes the first (second? depends on what you consider first, getting the articulated buses, or actually setting up the ART services) step in improving our bus services overall, and that MARTA already has a plan to implement improved bus service, and that the referendum does not exclude further system improvements in the future (especially with DeKalb and Fulton joining in the expansions), I propose we move discussions on buses, other than as proposed by the November referendum.

This is a good conversation to have, but I think it's best had elsewhere.


Now, I just got back from a half-week conference in Seattle. As some of you are doubtlessly aware, Seattle is getting ready to vote on their Sound Transit 3 ballot option in much the same way we are voting on general MARTA expansion. Like ours, it includes piles of new light-rail, bus rapid transit, various other bus improvements, and station improvements. Unlike ours, it includes commuter rail.

Looking through the material for this vote, the campaign comes across as much more consolidated and directed. There is a single, well made website that covers all the explanations, hosts all the documents, and generally does a better job of presenting the information about the expansion vote.

Frankly, it makes our efforts look like amateur hour. Of course it's a bit too late to do anything about it, but for future efforts, it would be nice to have a similar, professional looking effort at marketing and presenting information.

This is not to discount the efforts of those like MoreMARTA, Citizens for Progressive Transit, Advance Atlanta, Sierra Club, the BeltLine, and even MARTA itself, but, much like our metro, the campaign was put forth as a disjointed, sometimes contradictory, even confusing effort. That's not even counting in the rouge promoters like myself who may have made things better or worse depending on the question.

Something that's rather important in the systems-level engineering I've worked in, is that it doesn't so much matter the method of doing something (since there are so many ways to get the same outcome), but it IS important to maintain consistency. Not only in units, equations, spreadsheets, variable names, or assumptions, but also in presentation and document aesthetics. Consistency of presentation not only makes absorbing new information easier, but gives off the appearance of professional, organized thought.

MARTA has, recently, begun moving on updating web-based resources with the launch of their updated website, but there's a long way to go before they have a level of consistency I have seen elsewhere when it comes to promoting the expansions.

It would have cost time and money that was not necessarily available, but I can't help but wonder if we might have had better reception / less confusion, if we had a common, consistent place through which to get our information.

I agree they could have done a better job of explaining the projects, how and when they will get built, but I feel as if the last minute stripping of a fireworks bill and inserting this into it with the short turn around on having a draft to city council, is a major cause of the bush league list.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Good thing the first project implemented by the sales tax increase will be bus frequency improvements.

Bad thing about it is what their idea of "improvements" means.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I still don't like how nothing is actually definitive as far as what the tax will pay for.

It's like, hey, here's a list of some stuff, only some of which we possibly might implement if y'all pass this tax increase. Some of it won't get built even if the tax does pass, but you have no way of knowing if that's the one thing near you, that you want.

:/

Matching Federal Funding also plays into that.