Georgia lawmakers resurrect multi-modal passenger terminal project (Doraville, Lenox: rail, stations)

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by LTCM

If it's expensive now it'll be even more so in the future. If it takes decades now it'll take decades in the future. If those are the reasons to not start that project today then you just have to write it of entirely.

But put me down on the record as saying that not having a northern hub will doom any large scale transit overhaul to being suboptimal and viewed by the public as a failure. Maybe it's in Lindbergh, maybe it's elsewhere - I'm not an expert so I cannot say for sure.

I appreciate all the great views expressed by the people here who are way smarter than me. But I honestly do think many transportation enthusiast operate in an echo chamber. Don't take that as mean spirited - I'm only trying to help. If you want to sell non enthusiasts on transit design something they want - something that is optimal to lower traffic and commute times. Large groups of people in Cobb, in Gwinnett, in Alpharetta; they don't care about density, central stations, or anything along those lines. They just want to get home from work to see their family.

Originally Posted by bu2

There's actually more office space in the Perimeter area than in downtown. The center of employment and population is well north of downtown. That needs to be considered in any planning. You shouldn't get stuck on a plan based on how Atlanta was 50 years ago.

Some good points here. This is why a "north hub" MMPT is important to go along with the larger "south hub" MMPT. The "north hub" can also serve as the Amtrak station.

The "north hub" should be in the Armour area: Armour Valley Station and Armour Valley Terminal

The "south hub" should be Downtown adjacent to Five Points (in the "Gulch"): Grand Five Points Station and Grand Five Points Terminal {alternatively, Five Points Station and Five Points Terminal}

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by JMatl

True, and it's been this way for a while now. Downtown & Midtown combined however have over 48 million sq ft of office space, a pretty impressive number.

Most commercial real estate types consider Peachtree & 14th to be the center of gravity for the Metro market currently.

True this as well. Good stuff.

[JMatl]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Some good points here. This is why a "north hub" MMPT is important to go along with the larger "south hub" MMPT. The "north hub" can also serve as the Amtrak station.

The "north hub" should be in the Armour area: Armour Valley Station and Armour Valley Terminal

The "south hub" should be Downtown adjacent to Five Points (in the "Gulch"): Grand Five Points Station and Grand Five Points Terminal {alternatively, Five Points Station and Five Points Terminal}

Agree on all points.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by LTCM

If it's expensive now it'll be even more so in the future. If it takes decades now it'll take decades in the future. If those are the reasons to not start that project today then you just have to write it of entirely.

Truth.

But put me down on the record as saying that not having a northern hub will doom any large scale transit overhaul to being suboptimal and viewed by the public as a failure. Maybe it's in Lindbergh, maybe it's elsewhere - I'm not an expert so I cannot say for sure.

Well, I'm not so sold on that. At least not for a northern hub. The closest you'd likely get to a unified northern hub would be Armour, given the sheer number of crossing lines, but that'll be more of a transfer hub, not a stand alone transit center. After that, everything is just too spread out to really have a singular hub that 'guarantees' the successfulness of a core station. Yeah they'll be useful, don't get me wrong, but there's more than enough for the MMPT to stand on its own today, at least as a phase-1, with more on the way.

By contrast, we'll need a lot more to make those northern hubs comparatively successful. More heavy rail, more commuter rail, etc. There's just not nearly as much in place as there is downtown to feed them.

I appreciate all the great views expressed by the people here who are way smarter than me. But I honestly do think many transportation enthusiast operate in an echo chamber. Don't take that as mean spirited - I'm only trying to help. If you want to sell non enthusiasts on transit design something they want - something that is optimal to lower traffic and commute times. Large groups of people in Cobb, in Gwinnett, in Alpharetta; they don't care about density, central stations, or anything along those lines. They just want to get home from work to see their family.

The irony here is that you're presenting realistic, but ultimately contradictory ideas here. Joe Shmoe might not care about density, but the lack of density makes his commute harder. Jane Shmane might just want to puck her kid up from school, but a lack of proper design to accommodate alternatives means that she must always drive as one of the hundreds of parents picking up their kids on over-burdened roads.

If you want realistic solutions to 'lower traffic and commute times' you have to care about density, central stations, and things along those lines. Otherwise you're chasing an impossible dream.

Originally Posted by bu2

Stupid mindless drivel. When I hear a phrase like "we need to do this to become world class" you know they haven't thought through the justification for it. You do things because they are useful to your city, not simply because you want to copy other cities.

Or, and here's a thought, they're just trying to sell it to an audience for who the normal, rational justifications don't seem to stick. Like, say, the Georgia State Legislature. There're a ton of reasons that cities of global significance have these facilities. This is just a good way to collectivize them into an easy to package soundbite.

Originally Posted by JMatl

True, and it's been this way for a while now. Downtown & Midtown combined however have over 48 million sq ft of office space, a pretty impressive number.

Most commercial real estate types consider Peachtree & 14th to be the center of gravity for the Metro market currently.

Exactly. Downtown and Midtown, together truly are the core of our metro, geographically, commercially, and transportation wise. Especially since they are so much closer to, and far better integrated to one another than any of the other Central Business Districts in the metro.

If we consider 14th and Peachtree to be the 'center of gravity', then we should be trying to place our 'central station' as close to that as possible, while maintaining secondary connectivity goals. Armour is closer than the Gulch, but only by a tenth of a mile, and with less rail, highway, surface street, and transit connectivity. It's also kinda in the middle of nowhere as far as commercial spaces are concerned, at least compared to Downtown.

For proximity to the core, access to surface streets, access to transit, access to interstates, and, perhaps most importantly considering we're talking about commuter and interstate rail, access to the national rail network, the Gulch is THE BEST our metro has to offer. Hands down. End of story.

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Well, I'm not so sold on that. At least not for a northern hub. The closest you'd likely get to a unified northern hub would be Armour, given the sheer number of crossing lines, but that'll be more of a transfer hub, not a stand alone transit center. After that, everything is just too spread out to really have a singular hub that 'guarantees' the successfulness of a core station. Yeah they'll be useful, don't get me wrong, but there's more than enough for the MMPT to stand on its own today, at least as a phase-1, with more on the way.

...

A "north hub" would be smaller (maybe even by a lot) than the "south hub" in Downtown at Five Points.

And the "north hub" should be at Armour--Armour Valley Station.


It would have the same elements as the "south hub," but on smaller scale. In addition, it would have Amtrak and the Beltline.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

There's actually more office space in the Perimeter area than in downtown. The center of employment and population is well north of downtown. That needs to be considered in any planning. You shouldn't get stuck on a plan based on how Atlanta was 50 years ago.

Perimeter doesn't have rail lines crisscrossing it like downtown.

[primaltech]

How about this crazy idea: first build a large infill MARTA station at the north side of Armour, just south of the creek, serving the Red and Gold HRT lines. Right next to Armour Yard. And right on the BeltLine, directly serving BeltLine LRT lines.

And then the Emory LRT line would run to there instead of Lindbergh, with an east/west oriented platform, nicely built into the station from the get go, sheltered and air conditioned and etc. Right underneath the HRT platforms, with easy transfer.

Then that LRT line would continue west along the BeltLine LRT tracks, just for a short bit. The next station would be Brookwood/Piedmont Hospital (Peachtree Rd). Then somewhere around Collier it turns right and goes into a short tunnel, with the next station at Collier @ Howell Mill.

Then the line could either go out to Cumberland and SunTrust Park via I-75 corridor, or, use the Silver Comet corridor, adjacent to the mixed-use path, with a stop at Moores Mill, and then eventually out to Vinings and Smyrna.

Plus, the commuter rail lines from Gwinnett would stop at Armour (as the only stop between Doraville and Downtown). So then Armour would be essentially the north hub. With a bunch of different lines all converging and crossing there.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

How about this crazy idea: first build a large infill MARTA station at the north side of Armour, just south of the creek, serving the Red and Gold HRT lines. Right next to Armour Yard. And right on the BeltLine, directly serving BeltLine LRT lines.

And then the Emory LRT line would run to there instead of Lindbergh, with an east/west oriented platform, nicely built into the station from the get go, sheltered and air conditioned and etc. Right underneath the HRT platforms, with easy transfer.

Then that LRT line would continue west along the BeltLine LRT tracks, just for a short bit. The next station would be Brookwood/Piedmont Hospital (Peachtree Rd). Then somewhere around Collier it turns right and goes into a short tunnel, with the next station at Collier @ Howell Mill.

Then the line could either go out to Cumberland and SunTrust Park via I-75 corridor, or, use the Silver Comet corridor, adjacent to the mixed-use path, with a stop at Moores Mill, and then eventually out to Vinings and Smyrna.

Plus, the commuter rail lines from Gwinnett would stop at Armour (as the only stop between Doraville and Downtown). So then Armour would be essentially the north hub. With a bunch of different lines all converging and crossing there.

Show me any transit station in North America with AC.

[primaltech]

With big circulating fans then, at least. I'm just saying, a nice light rail station, indoors.

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Show me any transit station in North America with AC.

I thought some MARTA stations had AC, but they are just rarely run.