Georgia DOT: Building free lanes won’t solve metro Atlanta’s traffic mess (Ideal: taxis, property taxes)

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Need4Camaro, tolled lanes are open now. More are being built as we speak. Expect almost all new highway lanes built in the metro to be tolled and the existing free lanes to get more and more grid locked.

I am not sure what suburban utopia you think you are moving to, but don't let the door hit you on the way out. There will be plenty more moving in to replace you.

Door won't hit me on the way out, it will be wide open and filled with gapes of citizens running from the catastrophe along the businesses and crippled corporate centers all filling the highways in the opposite direction of Atlanta like a black friday freakshow all due to this non sense.

And trust me when I say, there are several metro's much better than Atlanta in terms of planning, design, forsight, and feasibility.

Research existing laws as to why tolled managed lanes are legal and converting an entire existing interstate highway is not and the multiple attempts to toll the entire Interstate system since the 50's and how each and every proposal failed despite its advantages.

You're going to be waiting a long time for your toll road utopia. Proposals to toll entire existing interstate sections are nothing new, but has yet to have been permitted.

And by the way... toll lanes are also nothing new. They've been around for several decades. Atlanta's metro is actually a bit late on receiving them. I have no issues with toll lanes, they provide a faster alternative. I do have an issue with forcing 6 million people to pay a toll only because the state couldn't get this crap figured out beforehand however... This was from the start, a Georgia screw up.

Okay...I'm tired of this thread and am done riding this topic in the same I-285 circles Atlanta..because indeed..this topic, like every single topic thats brought up about this that criticizes Atlanta's roads, and not the politicians who prohibitted proper expansion of MARTA into the suburbs..always ends this way.. and for me.. it's over.. so once more - in another 5 decades I'll check back, and if it passes I'll rename this city jsvh-land. That'll be your reward for your forsight!

[jsvh]

N4C,

This is where you are missing the point. We are talking about plans decades in the making. 50 years ago GDOT was bulldozing homes to build two new freeways through east side neighborhoods. That has been shut down. And today basiclly no new freeways are getting built, but plenty of toll mileage is under construction. If you think decades into the future it will not continue to shift the reality even more towards toll roads, I cannot help you.

In the mean time, enjoy watching traffic go by you in the HOT lanes as you sit in the gridlock. My "toll road utopia" is already here, I will wave as I go by.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Sam, the only defense you cling to anymore is not which is better but that it has "absolutely no chance of ever becoming a reality" as tolled lanes are in fact rapidly becoming not only a reality, but the norm.

There is really no point in discussing this with you. You argue things could never happen as they are happening.

No, they aren't...see below...

Originally Posted by jsvh

Need4Camaro, tolled lanes are open now. More are being built as we speak. Expect almost all new highway lanes built in the metro to be tolled and the existing free lanes to get more and more grid locked.

Pay attention. NEW lanes. The existing lanes will likely never be tolled. Mostly since it's not generally legal to convert existing interstate lanes to tolled lanes, and because it's a monstrously stupid idea. I honestly don't care if they build additional tolled lanes. So far, they've pretty much been a failure, but that's not my problem. They re also not "rapidly becoming the new norm". This is simply false. You keep supporting your arguments with complete falsehoods, then coming back with some veiled insults about "utopias" when called out on it.

It's quite fun to live rent-feee in your head.

I am not sure what suburban utopia you think you are moving to, but don't let the door hit you on the way out. There will be plenty more moving in to replace you.

And enjoying all of our free roads!

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

In the mean time, enjoy watching traffic go by you in the HOT lanes as you sit in the gridlock. My "toll road utopia" is already here, I will wave as I go by.

I drive all over town. Almost never sit in gridlock. And you won't wave...you don't go on interstates. I mean, they're so dangerous and deadly.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by jsvh

N4C,

This is where you are missing the point. We are talking about plans decades in the making. 50 years ago GDOT was bulldozing homes to build two new freeways through east side neighborhoods. That has been shut down. And today basiclly no new freeways are getting built, but plenty of toll mileage is under construction. If you think decades into the future it will not continue to shift the reality even more towards toll roads, I cannot help you.

In the mean time, enjoy watching traffic go by you in the HOT lanes as you sit in the gridlock. My "toll road utopia" is already here, I will wave as I go by.

BLARGH... I wanted to leave but I just had to comment on this.... ....and then I'll be done.

-- You realize the Interstate system and its original plan is mostly complete right?
-- Said fact is important because now ALOT more consideration is taken to account before a new Interstate is cosigned onto a metro highway -- and MOST metro's simply don't have the time for that, thus a Toll Road is much more feasible than building a highway to Interstate Grade.
-- You also realize private funded toll controlled highways long out-date the Interstate System as well right?
-- Private tolled highways are only new in GEORGIA.. they have been common in several states for over 5 decades.. they didn't just suddenly start sprouting out the ground like flowers (Florida, Texas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, Delaware, Maine, Kansas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, California, Washington state, Washington D.C.)
-- It's EASIER to build a toll funded highway than to sit and wait on federal approval of an interstate (that wasn't apart of the original design), state owned and maintained toll roads are nothing new... They are merely, a convenient alternative.
-- There's a BIG difference between biulding a BRAND NEW toll road and tolled lanes, versus converted an EXISTING INTERSTATE into a toll-road...and if you want to see how extreme of a difference it is, go look at I-95 and Florida's Turnpike between Ft.Lauderdale and Miami Florida and ask yourself WHY they aren't the same road... ...there's a big reason for it!

Have a nice day Mr.Bullet!

[arjay57]

The problem I see with more lanes is that it forces people to do more cutting over, which creates more congestion and hazards.

I'd rather see four 3-lane roads than one 12-lane road.

[jsvh]

Keep moving the goalposts. I never said we need to turn all the existing lanes into tolled lanes overnight. Of course, even you acknowledge that a federal law is really the last thing stopping that from happening too.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Keep moving the goalposts. I never said we need to turn all the existing lanes into tolled lanes overnight. Of course, even you acknowledge that a federal law is really the last thing stopping that from happening too.

Don't be naive. The lack of a federal law is not the only thing standing in the way. You would have to have the population of the city/state/metro agree to something like that. And that will never happen, overnight or not.

[jsvh]

Good luck with that. Fuel taxes are simply not a sustainable funding source for highways in the coming decades.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Good luck with that. Fuel taxes are simply not a sustainable funding source for highways in the coming decades.

Good evening Mr.Bullet!

I came back to check on ya and make sure the ol sanity clock is clickin and it seems about halfway there, we're still workin on the other half.

So a few points I'd like to go over in tonights lesson regarding "fuel taxes" and despite what the media may inform us.. ..is where does your personal logic stand on the matter.. before we lock and load and fire away at this subject lets consider some things about our fuel taxes.

-- Federal Fuel taxes haven't been altered for a considerable amount of time, since approximately 1993. individual State entities vary.
-- While it is true that cars have become more fuel efficient over the last decade, there are so many other variables to consider against this that it was be unbelievably unrealistic to assume that the increased efficiency in vehicles are leading to the deterioration of our Interstates... Lets go over a few of them...
-- There's ALOT more vehicles on the road today, although cars are stopping less frequently at fuel stations, there's a ton more of them .. so even IF today's cars were so significantly advantageous (and with the exception of Hybrid's, the average car is getting around 22 - 25 MPG so no - not by a tremendous amount.- SIGNIFICANT though, yes.) The amount of vehicles on the road today should easily offset the losses in due to increased MPG.
-- Economy cars are nothing new, vehicles capable of obtaining 30 + MPG have existed since the 80's with the main door opening to this feat being the introduction of a thing called Fuel Injection.
-- Even IF today's cars were so significantly advantageous that its offsetting the $0.18 gas tax inspite of the huge amount of increased drivers, it would likely mean that the average vehicle was obtaining approximately 7 MPG back in the 90's and before it..and that isn't the case... So before we biuld tolltopia.. just out of the kindness of my heart...where will that money "really" be going. Because there is more than enough to repair the Interstates..but its not all in the right pockets!!
-- So if we truly have a shortage of funding just because a few models actually make 30MPG, why?

Just something to consider!